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The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

Podcast The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
Podcast The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast


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  • S4 E64: Fix This: Infrastructure & Environment | Gregg Hurwitz and Rick Geddes | JBP Podcast
    This episode was recorded on November 9th, 2021. Jordan Peterson, Gregg Hurwitz, and Rick Geddes meet to discuss the debate surrounding the multi-billion dollar infrastructure bill currently going through the US congress. Rick Geddes is a professor in the Department of Policy Analysis and Management at Cornell University and a well-recognized expert in American infrastructure policy and development. He has done extensive research on infrastructure, including but not limited to the funding, financing, operation, and maintenance of major projects with a focus on new technologies. Gregg Hurwitz was today’s co-host. Gregg is a former student of Jordan’s at Harvard. He is now a bestselling scriptwriter, producer, and novelist. In the years leading up to the presidential election, Gregg has been working with an independent team of Hollywood writers, producers, and directors to design a moderate, far-reaching political message for the democratic party. Find more Rick Geddes online here: Find More Gregg Hurwitz on Twitter: Check out Gregg’s bestselling books: [00:00] Intro [00:30] Jordan introduces this week’s guests to discuss the newly-proposed infrastructure legislation (winter '21)—a crucial bill for the American people [03:28] Geddes gives an overview of infrastructure and his background therein [07:46] The monumental accomplishment of the US interstate highway system. Could it be built again today? [11:10] “You've heard the adage that time is money. [That's] certainly the case with infrastructure. When a project gets delayed by the NEPA process for say 5 years, the amount of extra money spent... is enormous, it can sometimes double" Rick Geddes [14:42] Gregg Hurwitz highlights the unsophisticated way the media and most politicians are currently handling the infrastructure bill [16:02] “It seems like we can get very little sane discussion in the media on the role that regulation plays in building a renewing infrastructure" GH [16:40] Extra delay and cost in federally funded projects is a regressive tax that hurts the poor and middle class [22:02] Pressure on the infrastructure bill from climate change. Looking at the evolution of new technologies to improve the efficiency of current infrastructure [25:49] “If infrastructure development means replacing inefficient use of resources with efficient use of resources, that should be a net gain on the economic side, so it helps poor people, and it should also have environmental benefits" Dr. Peterson [26:07] What are our current top infrastructure priorities? What needs to be addressed and fixed ASAP? [35:31] We need to capitalize more on the utility of combined public and private ventures in infrastructure projects [52:32] The importance of defining and communicating what a successful infrastructure project looks like [55:36] Given our systemic problems, how can we give politicians and private firms a positive incentive for meaningful participation? [01:03:14] You can only focus on so many projects before outsourcing becomes a necessity [01:12:19] You'd be extremely naive to believe that the people sustaining our infrastructure systems are only in it for personal gain [01:16:48] The extraordinary reliability of the societal infrastructure system [01:18:47] “The idea that it's just power that drives people to the top of organizations isn't true because, if it were, we would have many more psychopaths and they would be way more successful" JP [01:23:15] What about infrastructure projects that should be started immediately? [01:25:44] “This is the ultimate bipartisan thing because it will reduce greenhouse gases, diesel emissions, improve the efficiency of our infrastructure, and it's right there on the table" RG [01:26:21] Outro #InfrastructureBill #Bipartisan #PublicVentures #ClimateChange #Infrastructure Learn more about your ad choices. Visit
  • S4 E63: The Symbolic World | A Lecture by Jonathan Pageau
    Our friend Jonathan Pageau gave a lecture on the conceptual structure of Genesis for an event that was orchestrated by the Montreal Jung Society. Jordan felt that this lecture would serve as a wonderful adjunct to his biblical series, also on Genesis, featured on this channel.  Thank you to the Montreal Jung Society and Jonathan for letting us release this video on our channel. We hope that you find it useful. Visit for more info on the Montreal Jung Society. Event Title: The Symbolic World - a lecture by Jonathan Pageau Event Description: “Meaning is showing itself to no longer be an overlay to an arbitrary world of phenomena, but rather the very pattern of reality.   Through the questions of emergence, attention, and consciousness which have been permeating so many fields in the recent past, the reality of pattern, ritual and image have also come to the fore. Meaning is showing itself, in a burgeoning post-secular age, as no longer only a subjective overlay to an arbitrary world of phenomena, but rather the very pattern of reality itself. In this frame we come to realize that the archetypal truths are not mostly biological and mental constructs in humans; they are firstly the inescapable patterning of the indefinite potential of the world as it encounters intelligence.”  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit
  • S4 E62: The Uniting Power of Story | Angus Fletcher | Jordan B. Peterson Podcast
    This episode was recorded on September 7, 2021. Angus Fletcher and I discuss creativity, the link between literature and resilience, what makes for compelling narratives, the different kinds of stories, and much more. Angus Fletcher is a Professor of Story Science at Ohio State's Project Narrative, the world's leading academic think-tank for narrative theory. He is also the author of Wonderworks: The 25 Most Important Inventions in the History of Literature. Find more Angus Fletcher on his website: [00:00] Intro [01:21] What is Project Narrative? [02:27] "Stories are the most powerful things ever invented. They're the most powerful tool we possess" Angus Fletcher [03:04] "When you realize stories have the power to change how our mind works, to troubleshoot it, to make it more resilient, more creative, more scientific—to do all these things... When you couple the power of stories with the human brain, you throw open the doors to anything" AF [03:53] The problem with literary studies. How stories empower us and improve performance [07:06] Wonderworks and the story of courage in Homer's Iliad [12:40] "Literature and scripture are synonyms. They mean 'that which is written.' So [something] more fundamental than any technology... Is simply that sense of spiritual experience" AF [13:18] The Neuropsychology of Anxiety by J. Grey [14:44] What are the 2 kinds of stories? [19:12] Story thinking [19:22] "Human cognition is largely narrative. We process the world narratively" AF [22:12] "The wonder of being on this earth... is to build stories and [empower people] to tell their own" AF "And to unite us in a collective story so we can work towards the same ends" JP [23:00] Why are certain stories so compelling? [24:48] The zone of proximal development [25:44] "Being enthralled is a manifestation of the instinct that specifies the zone of proximal development" JP [31:24] The ideal spirit transcending the individual; Jung's Pleroma [32:14] "The flip side of anxiety is creativity—they're both about restless energy" AF [33:31] What's the source of dreams? [33:55] "We have this vast knowledge in embodied action." A great storyteller takes "images that reflect a compelling pattern of behavior [and verbalizes them]” JP [34:56] Abstract representation of patterns as a dream-source [38:43] Computational power, stories, and the differences between the abstract and particular [38:48] "Much of what drives the demand for higher computational resources is... producing artificial realities for fantasy simulation" JP  [45:51] Christianity and Star Wars [46:35] "Star Wars is Christianity for atheist nerds" JP [46:56] "We are most happy when we don't perceive ourselves as inheriting an archetypal story" AF [48:16] "We see in stories, and this is partly why our eyes are adapted... so that people can see [the white in] our eyes. It's really important because [our eyes point at] what they're interested in. We can see what they value [and] infer their motivation" JP [50:36] Literature and psychedelic experiences [51:27] "In psychotherapy... you're trying to hammer the person's narrative into a single... functional unit" JP [55:31] Trauma, unconscious mapping, and dream analysis [56:56] "Any territory you cannot perceive through the overlaid projection of a narrative map is traumatizing" JP  [59:59] Jung, Joseph Campbell, and Erich Neumann [01:02:51] Jung vs Darwin on stories [01:10:18] "Literature can build emotional and intellectual resilience" AF [01:14:55] Being adaptive is “to be emotionally and intellectually resilient" AF [01:15:54] Creative training; measuring creativity #Creativity #Stories #Jung #Literature #Darwin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit
  • S4 E61: Meaning, Awe and Conceptualization of God - pt. 3
    This episode is comprised of multiple Season 4 episodes from the podcast, specifically, Jonathan Pageau, James Orr & Nigel Biggar, Ian McGilchrist, Lawrence Krauss, Christopher Kaczor and Matthew Petrusek and Bishop Barron. We have paired this compilation with the release of the full video series on YouTube in one video. This episode is brought to you by Jordan's personality course available at The Personality Course is available for the week of Black Friday for 53% off. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit
  • S4 E60: The 4 Horsemen of Meaning | Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau | JBP Podcast
    This episode was recorded on September 10th 2021. Jordan Peterson, Bishop Barron, John Vervaeke, and Jonathan Pageau have a round table to explore ideas and theories of Meaning. All three guests have been on the podcast before, and all share Jordan’s passion for the universal truths of human experience. This deep discussion explores the roots of Meaning and religious significance. Bishop Barron is the founder of Word on Fire and the auxiliary bishop of the archdiocese of LA. John Vervaeke is a colleague of Jordan’s and an associate professor at the University of Toronto since 1994. He teaches courses on reasoning, cognitive development, and higher cognitive processes. Jonathan Pageau is a symbolic thinker, YouTuber, and class carver of orthodox icons. - Find more Bishop Barron on YouTube: And here: Find more John Vervaeke online on his website: John's YouTube channel: Find more Jonathan Pageau on YouTube:  Jonathan's website: _________ [00:00] Preview [01:30] Intro [02:40] Everyone gives their answer to “What is meaning?” [03:30] “We're using meaning as a metaphor... something similar to the way a sentence works. It has intelligibility to it that connects us to the world... so that we can interact and be informed by it” Jon Vervaeke [07:22] “Our mental framing is transparent like a pair of glasses, but there are times we need to step back and, by taking the glasses off and examining them, consider our framing structure" JV [09:10] “When you look at the world there is a central point of focus. When you focus on the point with your eyes it becomes very clear... until we no longer perceive anything by the edge of our vision. It's nothingness, it's just not there" Jordan Peterson [13:56] Bishop Barron's view on meaning and religion [14:23] “I would say that meaning is to be in a purposeful relationship to a value" Bishop Robert Barron [17:55] “So I'm talking to you, which I believe is a good, but it's nested in a higher good and a still higher good, so finally I want not just this particular good but good itself—that's a religious relationship" BRB [18:20] Pageau’s opening thoughts on meaning and religion [19:56] “The reason we perceive hierarchy is because we are always judging... or trying to evaluate whether something’s good" Pageau [20:31] Jordan’s brief foray into “mini-celebrations” [21:53] The idea of revelation [24:46] “It isn't obvious to me that we see objects—we see patterns" JP [27:40] “Like a Rolling Stone—it wasn't the first song I liked, but it was the first that rocked my world and rearranged my mind, and I think that's where real value is" BRB [28:42] Underlying causes of the crisis of meaning [30:10] “Something that starts with Scotus... and goes into the heart of the scientific revolution is that there’s no such thing as levels—reality just is" JV [31:00] Science around the hierarchy of intelligibility and connectedness [33:00] What is science? [39:00] “There’s an epistemic hierarchy and science does not belong on the top" BRB [42:00] “As scientists, we are motivated by a narrative we don't understand scientifically… The whole enterprise is driven by a dream whose reality can't be encapsulated within the process itself" JP [44:00] The ignorance in assuming science OR religion are correct [44:40] Eminationist ontologies [55:30] Religious experiences [01:07:30] The book of Revelations as a psychedelic experience. [01:17:30] The Psychedelic problem and why psychedelics are useful in communal experiences. [01:26:00] Jordan’s biblical lectures [01:32:00] What are the guests working on? [01:36:00] Beauty in churches [01:38:00] Growing up Christian [01:44:00] Possibility is real [01:50:00] Joining religion and science [02:03:30] Wrapping up #Meaning #Psychology #Religion Learn more about your ad choices. Visit

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