Being Well with Forrest Hanson and Dr. Rick Hanson

Why is it so hard for us to do what we actually want to do? In this episode, Forrest explains the hidden structure of self-abandonment: how shame drives the loop, how the loop produces more shame, and how the inner critic uses a “can’t win” situation to keep us stuck. Then he and Dr. Rick explore what actually breaks the cycle, including the role of anger, the difference between shame and grief, self-compassion, and what it really means to get on your own side.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro and overview of self-abandonment

4:38: What are we abandoning?

8:30: The self-abandonment loop

21:55: How a parts model can help us understand the shame

26:20: The double-bind of self-criticism

32:56: How to get out of the double-bind

41:34: Anger and resentment

49:47: Moving from shame to grief

56:15: Breaking the self-abandonment loop

1:10:22: Recap

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Forrest is joined by associate therapist and his fiancée Elizabeth Ferreira for an honest, personal conversation about what it's actually like to be in a relationship when one partner is living with trauma, complex PTSD, or another ongoing mental health challenge. Drawing on their experience together, they discuss supporting without enabling, avoiding power imbalances, managing resentment, dealing with moments of frustration, and the importance of reciprocity. Elizabeth has some thoughts about the DSM. Forrest shares about how Elizabeth has supported him. It’s a good one.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro and Elizabeth’s overview

5:50: How trauma shapes you

9:05: How Elizabeth found safety in her relationship with Forrest

11:12: How the relationship helped Forrest grow

15:44: Self-discovery through relationship

21:19: How to effectively support a partner with mental illness

33:42: Being ‘sturdy’

39:18: Navigating criticism

43:30: Communicating without resentment or shame

54:57: Avoiding stigma, and why Elizabeth wants to throw the DSM out the window

59:52: Not buying in to the smallest version of your partner

1:04:27: Recap

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Have you ever walked back into your parents' house and suddenly felt like you'd downloaded an old version of yourself? In today’s episode, Dr. Rick and Forrest explain why through one of the most influential frameworks in psychology: Family Systems Theory (FST). 

FST argues that hidden rules govern the behavior of the groups we’re a part of, and when you know the rules it’s easier to see them in action. Rick and Forrest explore how systems replicate patterns of behavior, place people into specific roles, and manage anxiety through shifting alliances. They close with how we can become differentiated by building a stronger sense of self. Topics include balancing closeness and distance, triangulation, specific roles like the “golden child,” FST’s non-pathologizing stance, the intergenerational transmission of patterns, and building strong relationships outside the system.

This episode includes references to self-harm.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro

2:19: What’s Family Systems Theory?

12:01: Overview of big concepts in FST

18:50: Family roles

25:19: How anxiety moves through a family system

36:42: The “identified patient”

46:51: Balancing compassion, agency, and responsibility

51:11: How healthy differentiation can disrupt a system

57:48: How to become more differentiated

1:11:33: Recap 

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Forrest is joined by journalist and author Michael Easter to discuss how we can make our lives better by making them (the right kind of) harder. They start with one of modern life’s paradoxes: things have gotten much easier, but this hasn’t led to more happiness or fulfillment. Michael talks about how our biological wiring backfires in today’s world of abundance, why humans need a mission, and the vital experiences we’ve lost. Other topics include problem creep, how everything has become a slot machine, rucking, and the “super medium” body.

About our Guest: Michael Easter is a professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, journalist, and best-selling author of The Comfort Crisis, Scarcity Brain, and Walk with Weight. Michael is also the author of the #1 Substack in the Health & Wellness category, Two Percent.

Key Topics: 

0:00: Intro

2:10: How our world became engineered for comfort

7:39: Problem creep

10:49: Michael’s experience with sobriety

15:00: Abundance in today’s world: the industrial revolution, social media, and slot machines

21:17: Why we need a mission

25:31: Building resilience in a world of comfort and abundance

29:30: Personal agency vs systemic forces

38:09: The lost experience of boredom

48:19: Walking with weight

1:00:46: Getting back into nature

1:10:41: Recap

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Dr. Rick and Forrest answer listener questions about the freeze state, ADHD, and power imbalances in relationships. First, they talk about how to deal with feelings of shame associated with the freeze state, emphasizing how we can “be with” in order to “work with.” Then they tackle a tricky question about how psychoeducation can complicate relationships. Next up, they discuss whether rates of ADHD have actually increased, and the differences between “real” ADHD vs. symptoms of screen addiction. Finally, they talk about how to think about the right fit with a therapist. 

Key Topics: 

0:00: Introduction

1:17: Question 1: Shame and the freeze state

19:12: Question 2: “My partner’s lack of psychoeducation is frustrating me!”

33:56: Question 3: “Why does everyone have ADHD?”

46:21: Question 4: “What’s the right amount of directness in therapy?”

56:01: Recap

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