Gangland Wire

In this episode of Gangland Wire, Host retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins dives into the shadowy intersection of organized gambling and college athletics through the story of Frank “Lefty” Rosenthal.  During the early 1960s, Rosenthal built his reputation by identifying weaknesses in sports systems, particularly among vulnerable college athletes. He met one who could not be bought, Mickey Bruce of Oregon. At the center of this story is a little-known but pivotal attempt at a fix involving the Oregon Ducks. Rosenthal and his associate, David Budin, believed they had found an opening, but they ran headlong into the integrity of Oregon halfback Mickey Bruce. Bruce flatly refused the bribe, setting off a chain reaction that would help expose a much wider pattern of corruption in college sports.   I break down how this wasn’t an isolated incident but part of a nationwide effort by gamblers to influence outcomes and exploit young athletes. The episode explores the mechanics of organized gambling, attempts to fix games, and why college sports became such an attractive target for mob-connected bookmakers.

The story reaches a dramatic turning point during U.S. Senate hearings on gambling in college athletics, where Mickey Bruce publicly identified Lefty Rosenthal as one of the men who tried to corrupt him. It’s a rare moment in mob history—one where a gambler is named in open testimony by a player who refused to bend.   From there, I trace Rosenthal’s continued rise in the gambling world, from Miami to Las Vegas, where he would help shape modern sports betting while repeatedly managing to stay one step ahead of serious legal consequences. Rosenthal’s story raises enduring questions about accountability, the limits of law enforcement, and why some figures seem untouchable.

I close the episode by reflecting on Rosenthal’s legacy—and on Mickey Bruce’s quiet heroism.

 

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0:03 The Story Begins

4:14 The Bribe Attempt

7:58 The Aftermath of Scandal

12:26 The Rise of Lefty

14:34 College Sports and Corruption

18:58 The Online Gambling Boom

22:26 The Fall of Adrian McPherson

24:24 Mickey Bruce’s Legacy

[0:00] Hey, hey, all you wiretappers, back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective. I worked a mob for about 14 years, and now I tell some mob stories, as many as I can find. And we all know Lefty Rosenthal. We all know Robert De Niro played him as Ace Rothstein in the film movie Casino. And that movie, part of the reason it was so good that Nicholas Pelleggi, the screenwriter, and wrote the book, was able to spend hours and hours interviewing Lefty Rosenthal in real life. He had gone to Florida by then and it seemed like the mob wasn’t after him anymore. They had one attempted bombing of him, if you remember.

[0:41] So it was a really good movie. There’s really good depiction of that era and that system that they had going out there. Let’s go back on Lefty Rosenthal’s history to a guy that he couldn’t corrupt. Lefty Rosenthal thought he could corrupt anybody, but he found a guy that he couldn’t corrupt. It was really one of his early cases where law enforcement, the FBI, and other state law enforcement agencies figured out Lefty Rosenthal was somebody, and he was a pretty big gambler. He was a nationwide gambler. In 1960, the Oregon Ducks had a pretty good team. What a name, the Oregon Ducks. They had a man named Dave Grayson and the quarterback with Dave Gross in the backfield. They had a 5’3 All-American receiver named Cleveland Jones. What a name, Cleveland Jones. They went 7-2-1. They lost to Michigan, and they also lost to eventual Rose Bowl champ Washington. But this was good enough to gain a Liberty Bowl invite to play Penn State. Oregon lost the bowl and played in two feet of snow and freezing temperatures in Philadelphia that year.

[1:50] But the biggest news of the season was made during their trip to Ann Arbor to play Michigan. They had this potential All-American player named Mickey Bruce, who really was obscure compared to especially this Dave Gross or this Cleveland Jones, who was an unusual player. He was a president of his fraternity. He was a former Little League World Series star. He was the son of an attorney. He was a team captain. He played halfback and defensive back. And there was two professional gamblers came to Ann Arbor that year and they didn’t know much about this guy, but they did know, one of them’s name was Budin, David Budin, and the other one was Frank Lefty Rosenthal. They didn’t know much about Mickey Bruce, but they had a connection to him. A guy who played for the Oregon State basketball team named Jimmy Granada and knew Boudin from when they were little kids growing up on the basketball courts in New York City. Now, Granada told Mickey that he had two friends staying at the team hotel and they needed tickets. This time, players could then were given tickets and they could turn around and sell them to people. Boudin ended up finding him and introduced himself and said he was Jimmy Granada’s friend and invited Mickey up to the room and said, I’m the guy that needs a couple of tickets.

[3:15] Mickey was a little bit hesitant, but didn’t know this guy. He’s probably got a New York accent, probably slick, more than likely. He hesitated at first and booted and said, just take a few minutes. I just want to get you to go and get those tickets. And so he goes him, so he follows him into the room and he finds Lefty Rosenthal waiting there, who he doesn’t know and won’t even have any idea who he is till much later. So they chatted a little bit about the game as people will and ask him questions about the team. And Rosenthal mentioned that Oregon was a six-point underdog. He said, do you don’t think a player could be bribed? Mickey said, I suppose they could. Buden then cut in. He said, Mickey, he said, what do you think it would cost to ensure that Michigan won by at least eight points? Mickey plays along. He says, you’re the big-time gamblers. You should know. So Buden said, about $5,000. And Mickey said, that’s probably fine.

[4:14] Mickey said, let me check into this. And he said, I’m late for a team meeting and I got to get going. So they made plans to meet later on about 9 p.m. Mickey was no fool or small town rube. His father had been a Chicago attorney and he now practice in El Cajon, California.

[4:31] He raced to catch up with his teammates and told an assistant coach about the bribe who told the athletic director, who then called in the Michigan State Police, who called in the FBI. And they told Mickey to go ahead and show up at 9 p.m. at the meeting in the hotel room. They don’t want to apprehend Buden and Rosenthal right now. They want to get some more information and really get a real solid bribery attempt out of them. So acting on the advice of these cops, Mickey goes back to the hotel room that evening.

[5:00] Buden and Rosenthal start talking to him. And so they gave him tips about how to carry out this scheme without attracting any attention. Buden and Rosenthal say, we’ll give you an extra $5,000 and you can get the quarterback, Dave Gross, to go along with this scheme. He said, Mickey, you just need to let some pass receivers get behind you once in a while and let them run up the score a little bit. And you’re not going to win anyhow, more than likely. Get the quarterback to call a few wrong plays nobody really ever noticed. And he said, I’ll give you each $5,000 after the game if you’ll do that. He also offered Mickey $100 a week just to call him at his house down in Florida and update him about the health of Oregon’s team before weekly betting lines were released makes you wonder how many guys did Rosenthal have calling him to update him on injuries and everything on different college teams and professional too. Because I know from doing a story before that Ocardo and a lot of the Chicago gangsters really valued Rosenthal’s tips on making their football bets. He seemed to have some kind of an inside track.

[6:08] As he got ready to leave, Mickey said, oh, wait a minute. I gave you those tickets. You got to pay me, which were only worth about three bucks each. And so Lefty gave him 50 bucks for the two tickets. Mickey would remember later that he had to roll $100 bills in his pocket, which is typical for a high-flyer, high-rolling kind of a dude like that, have a big roll of cash in your pocket. And then you reach down in, peel some off so everybody can see how much money you got in your pocket. Rosenthal said, hey, I got to leave tonight, but see my friend Buden in the morning, David Buden, and he’ll give you the money. Mickey agreed, went back to his room. The next morning, while eating breakfast with his teammates, he sees a state trooper leading Buden out of the hotel in handcuffs, and then missed Lefty Rosenthal, who, as he had told them the night before, the Lefty was going to be leaving, and they had made a good bribery attempt. I don’t know what the police were waiting on. They were trying to make an even better case or something. I guess they probably They wanted him to go back in and catch them all together with the money. But then lefty left, and they went ahead and pulled the trigger early. You never know how these things work out exactly and what was at play. During the game, Mickey, I tell you what, Mickey played his heart out. He got an interception for a touchdown. It didn’t make any difference. Michigan won easily, 21 to nothing, and easily covered the six-point spread.

[7:28] A player will later be asked about this, and part of the reason was he said the coach had called a late-night team meeting and told them about this bribery attempt and asked them if any of them had been approached. Of course, everybody said no. Whether they had or not, they’re going to say no. But this player said it really shook us. We just had no rhythm. We just couldn’t get together for that game.

[7:50] Buden, when he was arrested, it turns out he was arrested for registering at a hotel under a fake name. He ends up paying some little fine and leaving town.

[7:58] Lefty was long gone the next day. It’s possible that Rosenthal and Buden knew that just attempting this bribe might have the negative impact on Oregon’s chances against the spread anyhow. All we know for sure is they got off scot-free in the end, and Buden paid a $100 fine or whatever. Lefty, but he did get exposed because Mickey Bruce, he didn’t have any idea of what he was getting drawn into, but it became a nationwide scandal. Basketball and football games, college games were being influenced on a wide scale by these gambling interests and Lefty Rosenthal was right in the middle of it all. Part of the McClellan committee, Senator McClellan of Arkansas convened his select committee just to investigate gambling and college athletics later that year. Because of this Michigan interaction with Lefty and college players and attempted bribery, they brought Mickey Bruce in. September the 8th, 1961, there’s a Senate hearing witness table. And sitting at that table is Mickey Bruce at one side and Frank Lefty Rosenthal at the other. And this was the same Frank he’d met at this hotel room. And he literally fingered Rosenthal as one of the men who attempted to bribe him. That photo that I’ve got in there, if you’re on YouTube, Rosenthal fled the fifth, of course.

[9:27] Committee here, meetings like that, really what they’re good for is to stir law enforcement and bring people out and bring out and get the public riled up against organized crime. That’s what McClellan’s committee was really good for. They had several of those committees that finally got local authorities and the FBI to start looking at organized crime. And in particular, this is the mother’s milk of organized crime by now is gambling. And college sports gambling was the thing at the time. There was some pro teams going on, but it didn’t have near the action going down on it that the college teams had. There was a lot more interest in college and a lot more college games every week. Later on the next year, Wayne County, Michigan District Attorney’s Office wanted Mickey Bruce to come back to Detroit and swear out a complaint against the people that tried to bribe him and name him and give statements and everything. Bruce, by then, he didn’t really want to mess with it. He was playing football. He had his fraternity work. He had to keep his grades up because he was going to law school.

[10:32] But they had a game against Ohio State that November. Michigan authorities thought, just come in and see us when you’re here. But he was out for the season by then. He had separated his shoulder, and he never really played again when they were playing Stanford earlier that year. He wasn’t going to go back to Michigan. His coaches tried to get him to cooperate, but he said, I’m done with the whole matter. In an interview, he said, as far as I’m concerned, this whole thing should have been dead a month ago after it happened. He conferred with his father, and they both said they can’t really make him do that.

[11:05] He said, I didn’t have time to go. I’ve got all these school activities that I’m doing, and I just don’t want to go. And he said, the Michigan police botched this thing from the start. They should have stuck around, and they should have got Rosenthal before they left town. There were several things they should have done, and it was a poorly run investigation that probably wasn’t going to succeed anyhow. And he said it had been over a year, and he said, I don’t really remember exactly what happened. I understand all that, and he could have helped him make a case, but there’s an obscure a paragraph in Lefty Rosenthal’s FBI file. And it might explain a little more about why Mickey Bruce didn’t testify in a criminal trial against Lefty. It already testified and pointed him out in the McClellan hearing. But right after that, his mother received a telephone call in her home in El Cajon, California. Now, there’s some, it says name redacted, but you can easily fill in the name. 1961, September 1961, name redacted, El Cajon, received a phone call from an unidentified male asking if, name redacted, can you fill in, Mickey Bruce, name redacted, answered in the negative, at which time this person uttered an oath and added, you’re going to get it, and so is he. I think it’s pretty easy to fill in the names of Mickey Bruce and his mother easily.

[12:26] Bruce stayed home Oregon went to Columbus Lost to the Buckeyes again Wayne County DA Dropped any cases Against Buden and Rosenthal For lack of evidence Lefty will continue During these years To run his sports book Out of Florida He’ll continue Traveling around the country And making contact With people in the College sports world Trying to bribe players And coaches And gather information And.

[12:50] Cops in Miami were watching Lefty by then, 1960, New Year’s Eve. Police Chief Martin Dardis of Miami knocked on Rosenthal’s door with a group of guys and found him in his bedroom in his pajamas. He had a telephone in one hand and a small black book in the other. Dardis took the phone away from him and started answering the calls, and they were from bettors all around the country. He remembered that there was one guy named Amos who wanted to place a bet on a football game on New Year’s Day. And Dardis handed the phone to Rosenthal who told the guy that was calling in says you’re talking to a cop you stupid SOB.

[13:28] During that raid, Rosenthal complained he’d paid $500 to keep local police from harassing his bookmaking operations. He said, you guys must be kidding.

[13:37] Evidently, you didn’t get your piece. About a year later, February 1962, after the Senate hearings, detective knocked on his door again in Miami. He came to the door sporting dapper attire, which he was a really dapper dresser, and he had painted fingernails, according to a newspaper account. He said, I’ve been expecting you.

[13:58] The detectives arrested Rosenthal, not for bribing Mickey Bruce, but he and his friend Buden faced charges in North Carolina for offering $500 to Ray Paprocki, a basketball player at NYU, and wanted to shave points in a 1960 NCAA tournament against West Virginia. During this time, authorities had uncovered a nationwide network of fixtures who conspired to influence hundreds of college basketball games over a five-year period. In the end, 37 players from 22 schools were arrested on charges relating to

[14:31] port shaving. Man, that’s, boy, that was huge. We’ve got these guys going down now periodically that are getting involved because of the apps. And we’re going to get a little more into that. This gambling thing and college athletics especially, but even pro athletics. It’s a corrupting force, guys. I know a lot of you like to bet on games, but it really, there’s a real potential for corrupting the game. And in the end, if they keep it up and people keep corrupting these games, it’s just going to be like wrestling. You’ll just, somebody will control who’s going to win and who’s going to lose in every contest. That’s what these gamblers would like to get, and they’d make all the money.

[15:08] Rosenthal pleaded no contest. He got a $6,000 fine for trying to fix this NYU-West Virginia game. He claimed that David Buden gave up his name and that he said later on, trying to clear himself of that, that that wasn’t really me. David Buden did it, and he would have given up his mother’s stay away from what he had to face. That was when the Nevada Gaming Control Board was after him.

[15:33] In 1967, Rosenthal, under the watch of the Chicago Outfit, started acting like his outfit bosses and bring outfit tactics down to Miami. He started intimidating rival bookies and others in Miami who incurred his wrath. He ordered bombings of the territory. I interviewed the son of a CIA operative named, his father’s name was Ricardo Monkey Morales. Look back and see if you can find that interview of the son of Monkey Morales. I think Monkey Morales was probably in the title. And he told us about his father’s relationship with Rosenthal. He told him that Lefty had told his dad that he represented organized crime out of Chicago. And he said that Morales said that Rosenthal paid him. He said that Rosenthal paid Monkey Morales to blow up Alfie’s newsstand with a bookie joint in the back. He also had him, they had him blow up a car and a boat owned by a well-known jewelry thief that the mob was pressuring to do some burglaries for them. He also had him explode a bomb. I remember this, explode a bomb in the front yard of a Miami police officer trying to show his power. I guess this guy was messing with him or something, trying to tell everybody he was connected to the outfit and don’t mess with me.

[16:50] Morales would also claim that he’d witnessed Rosenthal meeting with Tony Splatron in Miami in 1967.

[16:58] 1970s, he goes to Las Vegas at the request of the outfit, which we all know. We’ll go back over it a little bit. Even legitimate gambling people will say he invented the sportsbook industry in Las Vegas. They didn’t really do that before. And Sports Illustrated once called him the greatest living expert on sports gambling. He’ll die in 2008 of natural causes down in Florida after all the skimming investigation went down and people started going to grand juries and being indicted and going to trials and everything. All the mobsters did. Several people in Las Vegas did. A guy out of the Tropicanda who was Kansas City’s man, Joe Augusto, and a guy named Carl Thomas who worked at both casinos and helping in skimming and several other guys that worked in the casino business. But guess who never was indicted? And guess who never even was called in for an interview? And guess who just hid out? Lefty Rosenthal. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it? Jane Ann Morrison of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Finally, they get an FBI agent to confirm to her that he was a top echelon informant during all this time. They try to blow him up in his Cadillac, another famous attempted mob hit. A lot of people speculate on that. They’ll always say it was Kansas City because they thought he was an informant all along. and never liked him and never trust him because he really, he brought all the heat down out in Las Vegas. Now, the heat was coming anyhow, but he maybe brought it a little bit quicker.

[18:24] There’s a former federal prosecutor out of Las Vegas that once said, it’s been said you should never speak ill of the dead, but there are exceptions to the rule, and Frank Rosenthal is one of those exceptions. He is an awful human being.

[18:38] Dave Budin, the guy who first approached Mickey Bruce, Yes. Continues in the sportsbook game and draws his son Steve into it. And by the 1990s, the online betting industry has taken over from your neighborhood bookie and a mob just running everything. It’s a multi-billion dollar thorn in the side of the U.S. authorities.

[18:59] 1998, federal prosecutors indicted Miami gambler David Buden, same man that tried to bribe Mickey Bruce, and indicted Buden’s son for running something called SDB Global.

[19:13] Which later became SBG. Federal authorities prosecuted Boudin under a federal anti-gambling statute because SDB Global was incorporated in Costa Rica, but it was based in Miami. Pleaded guilty and got a $750,000 fine. In Kansas City, during those same years, the son of the feared mafia capo, if you will, Willie the Rat Comisano, Willie Comisano Jr., They headed up a group of bookies that contained the names and sons and other extended relatives of many Kansas City Mafia members out of the 50s and 60s. And they were using the internet and dealing with either SDB Global or one of the other sports betting sites that sprung up in Costa Rica because they were all over the place. Budins were high flyers in this doing business out of Costa Rica. And they were making a lot of money, a lot of money. In 2004, SBG comes to the attention of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. They sent an undercover in, and they asked an SBG operator why the company required customers to call before wiring each new deposit. And he got him on tape to say, because we change the names in the countries of the middlemen all the time. The agent suggested that the process made it uneasy, and the employee of SBG said, you don’t have to worry about it. Lots of people do it.

[20:35] Well, during this investigation, they also found there was a Florida State star quarterback named Adrian McPherson was placing bets on games that he was playing in and ends up getting dismissed from the Florida State Seminoles football team. He was a rising star, a rising young star quarterback. In the investigation, they learned he’d already lost $8,000 to a local bookie who’d cut him off. He was giving him, extending him credit. Guy owed him $8,000 and he cut him off. So that’s when he turned to online SBG sites. Now, you have to pay up front. So he was getting some money to gamble somehow, and he tried to hide this activity by using a roommate, but a review of his phone records showed several calls to STB, and one time was, like, just before, there were, like, two in a row. And that’s how they were, like, trying to hide it and then pass it off to make it look like there was somebody else making the bet. He eventually gets arrested. He pleads to lesser charges. But one of those charges was check forgery. And when a gambler starts losing, many times they’ll turn to those white-collar crimes like check forgery, embezzlement. They’ll start stealing from their work, shoplifting, drug dealing. They can do anything like a junkie, man. They’ll do anything to keep gambling.

[21:52] I once knew a guy said he couldn’t even walk into a casino because he just starts getting a rush. He just can’t stay away from the machines once he walks in. So he totally has to stay out. Adrian McPherson, he was also an all-star baseball player. Even though he is kicked out of college ball for betting on his own team, he then gets drafted. The New Orleans Saints in 2005 draft him. They want him as their starting quarterback. But they also drafted a guy named Drew Brees, who ended up leading him to the Super Bowl in 2006.

[22:27] Now, later in that season or during that season, the Tennessee Titan mascot will accidentally hit McPherson with a golf cart. He sues him for several million dollars. The following year, he does this. He’s been injured by this golf cart. I don’t know if it wasn’t a career injury, obviously, but they also the gambling thing. And the following year, he appears with the Grand Rapid Rampage AFL team. Then he goes to a Canadian team. Then he plays on a variety of arena football teams, a different one every year almost. And finally, in 2018, the Jacksonville Sharks, which is an arena team, releases him. His gambling led him to a free fall into obscurity. He was on his way up to life-changing generational wealth, and the gambling just got him.

[23:17] Let’s go back a minute, you know, all these, I’ll be telling all these stories about these low rents and degenerate gamblers. Let’s go back to the incorruptible Mickey Bruce. He was injured during 1961 during his senior year. His last game was in 1961 against Stanford. His three seasons of Oregon, he rushed 29 times for 128 yards. At one touchdown, he caught 10 passes for 113 yards and three touchdowns. Defensively, he intercepted six passes in the last season, returned six punts for an 11-yard average. He ends up being drafted in the 24th round of the 1962 AFL draft by the Oakland Raiders, but he never pursued a professional football career. Instead, he followed his father’s footsteps. He went to law school and became a lawyer out in California.

[24:08] Michael J. Bruce, his story goes really beyond the gridiron. He’s on that very short list of individuals who have implicated gangsters, pointed them out in court, and survived. And he prospered from then on under

[24:20] his own name. He didn’t go in witness protection or anything like that. He might not have agreed to prosecute Lefty going back to Michigan for that other case, but he did stand up and point at Lefty Rosenthal and say, he’s the one that tried to bribe me. 1981, Mickey Bruce will get the Leo Harris Award. Presented to alumni, alumnus Letterman, who have been out of college for 20 years and have demonstrated continuous service and leadership to the university. Some of the other, Alberto Salazar went to Oregon. He got it. A guy named Dan Fouts, I know that name, Johnny Robinson, Bill Dellinger.

[25:02] So guys, it’s much better to get a Lifetime Achievement Award for doing good than to get a car bomb or to die in obscurity. So thanks, guys. That’s the story of Lefty Rosenthal and his earlier years before the skimming and really the story of a tribute to Mickey Bruce, a guy that stood up and did the right thing when it needed to be done. Thanks, guys. And don’t forget, stand up and go to your computer and order one of my books online or rent one of my movies or look at my website and see what you like there. Make a donation, if you will. I got expenses. Don’t usually ask for. I got ads. They just cover some things and then other things. Some of these FOIA things cost a lot of money and got a few expenses. Anyhow, so thanks a lot, guys. But mostly, I appreciate your loyalty and all the comments that you make on my YouTube channel and on the Gangland Wire podcast group. It’s inspiring. It really, truly is inspiring. It keeps me coming back. Thanks, guys.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, continues his deep dive into organized crime history with prolific Mafia author Jeffrey Sussman. Sussman, the author of eight books on organized crime, joins Jenkins for a wide-ranging conversation that spans the rise, violence, prosecutions, and survival tactics of La Cosa Nostra in America. Drawing from works like Backbeat Gangsters and his latest release Mafia Hits, Misses Wars and Prosecutions, Sussman offers sharp insight into how the Mafia enforced silence, eliminated enemies, and adapted to government pressure.

The discussion opens with omertà, the Mafia’s infamous code of silence, and how mob warfare enforced loyalty through fear. Sussman recounts notorious hits and mob wars that shaped organized crime, then shifts to landmark prosecutions led by Thomas Dewey, whose relentless pursuit of Murder Incorporated dismantled the mob’s most feared execution squad.

Jenkins and Sussman examine the disastrous Appalachian Conference, where Vito Genovese overplayed his hand, drawing national attention to the Mafia and setting the stage for informants like Joe Valachi to break decades of secrecy.

The episode also explores the Mafia’s darkest execution methods, including lupara bianca—murders designed to leave no body and no evidence—along with chilling stories involving Mad Sam DeStefano. The assassination attempt on Joe Colombo, and its ties to Joey Gallo, highlight how ego and publicity often proved fatal in the mob world.

The episode concludes with Sussman previewing his upcoming book on the Garment District, blending personal family history with organized crime’s grip on American industry. Together, Jenkins and Sussman deliver a sweeping, chronological look at how the Mafia rose, fractured, and endured—leaving a permanent mark on American culture. Get his book Mafia Hits, Misses, Wars, and Prosecutions.

⏱️ Episode Chapters

00:00 – Introduction and Jeffrey Sussman’s Mafia work

03:45 – Omertà and enforcing silence

07:30 – Mafia hits and internal wars

12:10 – Thomas Dewey and Murder Incorporated

18:40 – St. Valentine’s Day Massacre

23:30 – Formation of the Five Families

28:50 – Italian and Jewish mob alliances

34:20 – Capone, Lansky, and Luciano

39:45 – Appalachian Conference fallout

45:10 – Vito Genovese and Joe Valachi

50:30 – Lupara blanca and body disposal

55:20 – Mad Sam DeStefano’s brutality

59:40 – Joe Colombo assassination

1:05:30 – Betrayal and mob survival

1:10:50 – Sussman’s upcoming Garment District book

 

[0:00] Hey, welcome, all you Wiretipers, back here in the studio of Gangland Wire, as you can see. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and later sergeant. I have a guest today. He is a prolific author about the mob in the United States. We have several interviews in the archives with Jeffrey Sussman. Welcome, Jeffrey. Thank you, Gary. It’s a pleasure to be with you once again. All right. How many mob books you got? Eight or nine, I think. Eight or nine. I know you’ve covered Tinseltown, the L.A. Families, the crime in L.A., the Chicago. What are some of those? I did Las Vegas, which had a number of the Chicago outfit members in it. I did Big Apple Gangsters. Oh, yeah. My last one was Backbeat Gangsters about the rock music business. Oh, yeah. And then I did also one about boxing and the mob, how the mob controlled boxing. And then my new book is Mafia Hits, Misses Wars and Prosecutions. The update is February 19th. All right. Guys, when I release this, we’re doing this, actually, we’re doing this before Christmas. But when this comes out, while you’ll be able to go to the Amazon link that I’ll have in there, get that book, we’ll have, you’ll see a picture of it as we go along. So you’ll know what the cover looks like. It sounds really interesting, especially about the Mafia Misses. But I’m sure that’s interesting.

[1:29] Well, the mob, that’s their way of enforcing their rules. The omerta, somebody talks, they’re going to rub you out, supposedly. And by mob, we’re talking about primarily La Cosa Nostra, Sicilian-based organized crime in the United States. Yeah. The five families particularly have brought this up front. The five families have really perfected this as an art, killing their rivals, killing people that threaten them in any way, killing people that they even had a contract on Tom Dewey, the prosecutor, I believe, at one time. That would be a bomb miss, wouldn’t it? Yeah, actually, what happened with that is Dutch Schultz wanted the commission to take out a contract on Tom Dewey, and they said, no, we can’t do that, because if we do that, it’ll bring down too much heat on us. And so the mob wound up killing Dutch Schultz because he was too much of a threat to them in some ways. But the irony was that if they had killed him, Lucky Luciano never would have been prosecuted. He was prosecuted by Thomas Dewey. Lucky Bookhalter never would have been prosecuted and gone to the electric chair, several others as well. So, by not killing Dewey, they set themselves up to be arrested and get either very long prison terms or go to the electric chair.

[2:57] Yeah, Dewey sent, I think it was four members of Murder Incorporated to the electric chair and the head of it, the Lepke book halter. And then he arrested and got a conviction against Lucky Luciano for pimping and pandering, which should have been a fairly short sentence, just a couple of years. But he had him sentenced to 50 years in prison, which is amazing, the pimping.

[3:20] So if they had killed Thomas Dewey, they probably would have been better off. But that’s 2020 hindsight. Yeah, hindsight’s always 2020. And a cost-benefit analysis, if you want to apply that, why the cost of killing Tom Dooley might have been much less than the actual benefit was. That’s right. Exactly. And they came to realize that, but it was too late for them. I think they always do a cost-benefit analysis in some manner. How much heat’s going to come down from this? Can we take the heat? Because I know in Kansas City, our mob boss, Nick Savella, was in the penitentiary. He was about to get out, and he sent word out, said I want all unfinished business taken care of by the time I get out. Because when I get out, I do not want all these headlines, because murder generates headlines. And so there was like three murders in rapid succession right after that.

[4:13] So they worry about the press and hits, murders generate press. So let’s go back and talk about some particular ones. One of the most famous ones was the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. Do you cover that?

[4:26] Yeah, I start with the assassination of Arnold Rothstein in 1928, and then I go right into the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre. I go into the Castel Marari’s War, the birth of the five families. They had a famous meeting at the Franconia Hotel where the Jewish and Italian gangsters decided to form an alliance rather than fight one another. I went through the trial and conviction of Al Capone, the Bug and Meyer gang. Which evolved into Murder Incorporated, and then how Mayor LaGuardia went after the mob in New York and drove out Frank Costello, who had all the slot machines in New York, drove him down to Louisiana, where Frank Costello paid Huey Long a million dollars to let him operate slot machines all around New Orleans and the rest of Louisiana. And then there was William Dwyer, O’Dwyer, and Burton Turkus, who prosecuted the mob, other members of Murder Incorporated, and then how the federal government was using deportation to get rid of a lot of the mobsters, and how the mafia insinuated itself with entertainers and was controlling entertainers like Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and Jerry Lewis and others.

[5:44] And then the Appalachian Conference, and what an embarrassment that was to Vito Genovese, who wanted to declare himself the boss of bosses. Instead, he became the schmuck of schmucks because the FBI invaded this. And there was a theory that this was really set up, Meyer Lansky, Carl Gambino, and Lucky Luciano, because they didn’t want Vito Genovese to become the boss of bosses because Vito Genovese was responsible for the attempted murder of Frank Costello, and they wanted to get rid of him. After they embarrassed him with Appalachian, And then they set him up for a drug buy. Which is ridiculous because you don’t have the head of a mafia family going out on the street and buying heroin from someone. But that’s what they got him for. And they sent him off to prison for 15 years where he died. But in the realm of unintended consequences, which we just heard some, he goes down to Atlanta and a guy named Joe Valacci is down there. And he thinks that Vito Genovese is given to the fisheye and maybe wants to have him killed.

[6:52] If Vito Genovese is not in Atlanta, Joe Valacci does not turn and become the first big important witness against the mob in the United States that couple that with Appalachian. And embarrassment to the FBI and then this Joe Valacci coming out with all these stories explaining what all that meant, the organized crime in the United States, why we may not have the investigation that subsequently came out of all that. It’s crazy, huh? Yeah, exactly. In terms of unintended consequences, because if Vito Genovese hadn’t given the kiss of death, supposedly, to Joe Valacci, you never would have had Joe Valacci’s testimony about how the mob operates. He opened so many doors and told so many secrets. It was a real revelation to the world.

[7:42] Now, what about these murders? And I understand they call them a lupara blanca, where the body is never found. Did you talk about any of those or look into that at all?

[7:53] We’ve had them in Kansas City, where it’s obviously a mob murder. They even will send a message to the family. We had one where the guy disappeared. Nobody ever found his body. But somebody called the family and said, hey, go up on Gladstone Drive and check this trash can. And then they find the guy’s clothes and his driver’s license, everything in there. Now, did you go into any of those blanks? Yeah, there were a number of mob hits, especially during the murder ink era where they would dispose of the bodies and no one would ever find them. But they would leave clues around for members of the family just so they would know that their father or their son or their brother, whoever was no longer in this world.

[8:39] Yeah, that was done quite a bit. And when the Westies, which was an Irish gang that operated on the west side of New York, they believed that if you never found the corpse, you could never convict them of murder. So they used to take their dead bodies out to an island in the East River and chop them into little pieces and then dump them in the river and no one would ever find them. And supposedly they did that with dozens and dozens of bodies. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, and it is. It’s hard to prosecute without the body. It’s been done, but it’s really hard to do. You’ve got to have a really lot of circumstantial evidence to approve a murder without a body. And when Albert Anastasia and Leffy Foucault, who were running Murder Incorporated, they believed two things. One, that if you didn’t find the body, it would be hard to prosecute. And if you couldn’t show a motive, that would be the other thing that would make it difficult. So there would be absolutely no connection between the person who killed the victim and the victim. There was no connection whatsoever. So it was almost as if it was a stranger. In fact, it was a stranger who would commit the murder and then disappear and make sure that the body also disappeared. So you’d have neither motive nor body. Interesting. Pretty stiff penalty for murder. So I understand why you take some extra. Exactly.

[10:08] Yeah, that tried to disassociate yourself from any motive for the body. There’s a guy in Chicago named Mad Sam DeStefano. Oh, sure. Lone shark and particularly egregious person when it came to collecting and was responsible for some murders and tortures. And they claim that he would buddy up to the person he knew he wanted to have killed and give him a watch. So then when the police came back around, he’d say, he was my friend. I gave him a present. I gave him that watch. Look and see. Ask his wife. I gave him a watch. Yeah. And I think it was Anthony Spolatro who was charged by the outfit of getting rid of Sam DiStefano because he was a friend. He had been like a protege of Crazy Sam. And so Sam didn’t suspect him as the person who would come and kill him. Yeah, that’s common clue. They say, look out. When a friend comes around and it seems a little bit funny and they want her particularly nice to you and you know you’re in trouble, anyhow, look out. Because that’s the guy that’s going to get you. Exactly. At least set you up. Maybe they have somebody else come in and pull the trigger, somebody that’ll leave town or whatever, but your friend’s going to set you up, make you comfortable.

[11:24] Yeah, I think that’s exactly how it happened. We talked a little bit about the Joe Colombo murder. Did you look at that? Yes.

[11:31] Tell us about that, because I’m really interested in that. I’d kind of like to do a larger story, just focusing on that, what really happened there, because that’s a mystery. Did this Jerome Johnson, this black guy, do it? Why would he do it? Nobody ever came out and connected him directly to Joey Gallo, and that’s the claim. So talk about that one. What happened is Joe Colombo formed the Italian Anti-Defamation League because he thought Italians were being blamed for too many things. And Colombo was responsible for having the producers of the movie The Godfather never use the word mafia in the movie, never use La Cosa Nostra in the movie. And he was making a big splash for himself. And this was driving a lot of people in the mafia a little crazy. They’re getting nervous because he was getting so much attention for himself, and it’s not the kind of attention they wanted. And Gambino was particularly upset about this. And Joey Gallo had been in prison, and he had been involved in the war against Profaci earlier on. And when he got out of prison, he felt that the new head of the Profaci family, who was Joe Colombo, should honor him with the amount of time that he spent in prison. And Joe Colombo offered him $1,000.

[12:57] And Gallo was incensed by that. He expected $100,000.

[13:02] And so he started another war with Colombo.

[13:09] This would be good for Carlo Gambino because then he could use Joey Gallo to get rid of someone and his hands wouldn’t appear to be anywhere near this. And when Joey Gallo was in prison, he befriended a lot of black gangsters who were drug dealers and showed them how to succeed in the drug dealing business. And his attitude was that the mafia was very prejudiced against black people, but he thought that was stupid. He thought that we should use black criminals the same way we use any other criminals. And so he befriended a lot of blacks when he was in prison. And no one really knows how exactly he came in contact with Jerome Johnson. But anyway, Jerome Johnson was given the mission of assassinating Joe Colombo at a demonstration where Joe Colombo would be speaking about the Italian American Anti-Defamation League, which had attracted a lot of entertainers. Frank Sinatra was on the board of it. They raised a lot of money. I spoke to some Italian friends of mine at the time, and they said that people from the Italian Anti-Defamation League went around to small Italian-run stores, pizza parlors, shoe repair stores, whatever, and had them closed down for that day so that these people should attend the rally. And the rally was being held, I believe, in Columbus Circle.

[14:36] And Jerome Johnson was there, and he had a press pass. So he was permitted to get very close to Joe Colombo because it appeared that he was a reporter or a photographer for a newspaper. And as soon as he got close enough, he pumped a couple of bullets into Joe Colombo’s head. Immediately, three or four gangsters descended on Jerome Johnson and killed him immediately.

[15:02] And those three or four people who killed him, they disappeared into the crowd. No one ever found them again. I know. I wish we’d had cell phone footage from that. No one wouldn’t have gotten away if everybody had their cell phones out that day when they would have seen everything that happened.

[15:21] Exactly. Columbo existed in a vegetative state. I think it was for about seven years before he finally died. I didn’t realize it was that long. Wow. Yeah, but he was semi-conscious. He couldn’t communicate. He was paralyzed. But the The Colombo family believed that it was Joey Gallo who was responsible for this. Joey Gallo and his new wife had been having a dinner with friends at the Copacabana nightclub in New York. They were joined at their table by Don Rickles, who had been performing that night. Comedian David Steinberg, who had been the best man at Joey Gallo’s wedding to a second wife, was there. And he suggested to them that they left the Copacabana about three o’clock in the morning. And he suggested to them that they all go down to Little Italy, go to Chinatown, and we’ll have a late dinner there. So Rick Olson and Steinberg said, it’s too late for us. You go and enjoy yourself and we’ll see you another time. Joey Gallo, his bodyguard, a Greek guy, I can’t remember his name exactly. Peter Dacopoulos. That’s it. And his wife, and Decapolis’ girlfriend and Joey Gallo’s stepdaughter. They all drove downtown. They couldn’t find anything open in Chinatown, so they drove over to Little Italy, and they went into Umberto’s Clam House.

[16:49] And it was very strange, because supposedly a gangster would never do this. Joe Colombo was sitting with his back to the door.

[16:58] Usually, your back is to the wall, and you’re facing the door. Oh, Joey Gallo was sitting with his back to the door. Yeah, I meant Joey Gallo. Yeah. Go ahead. And there was kind of a lonely guy sitting at the bar having a drink, and no one paid any attention to him. He was a mob wannabe, and he recognized Joey Gallo, and he went to a mob social club that was a few blocks away that was a hangout for Colombo gangsters. And when he came in and told them that joey gallo was there and the one of the guys there called a capo from the colombo family and told him who they saw and so forth and apparently he instructed them to go and get rid of him and so they took the mob wannabe guy and they got in two cars and they drove down to or around the block whatever it was to umberto’s clam house they went in and they immediately started shooting. And Colombo flipped over the table. I’m sorry, Joey Gallo flipped over the table and had his wife and girlfriend in the step door to get behind the table. And he and Peter were firing back at these guys.

[18:07] Peter got shot in the ass and complained about it for many months afterwards, and Joey Gallo ran out onto the street chasing them, and he got shot in the neck, and I think it hit his carotid artery, and he bled to death on the sidewalk. And the guys from the Columbo and the Columbo wannabe guy, they quickly drove up to an apartment on the Upper East Side where the Columbo capo was. And he told them to go to a safe house in Nyack, New York, where they went. And meanwhile, the mob wannabe guy who had fingered Columbo, he’s getting very nervous. He feels that his life isn’t worth too much. He’s in over his head.

[18:51] Right. So he sneaks out in the middle of the night and takes a plane to California to live with his sister. And he tries to get into the witness protection program, but they don’t believe him. They don’t believe he has enough evidence to make it worthwhile. No one knows exactly what happened to him afterwards. And the guys who supposedly killed Gallo, nothing really happened to them either. There was a huge funeral for Joey Gallo in Brooklyn. And it was like one of those old mob funerals that you see in a movie with a hundred flower cars and people lining the streets. And I think it was Joey Gallo’s mother who threw herself into the grave on top of the coffin. Oh, really? And Joey Gallo’s.

[19:38] He had two brothers, one of whom had died of cancer, and the other one wound up going into another mob family. That was part of the peace deal. I can’t remember if it was the Gambino family or the Genovese family. He went into one of those two families. I think it was Gambino family, that Albert Kidd Twist gallo, I think was his name. And I think it was the Gambino family. He just kept a low profile until he died of natural causes. I think he’s dead now. He never heard from him again, basically. Exactly.

[20:06] Interesting. That’s a heck of a story. A lot more stories like that in there, too. I bet. What was your favorite story out of that, or the one that shocked you or you learned something? Maybe something that you learned that you didn’t know or cut through some myth.

[20:20] Probably, I’m just looking at my notes here to see what really fascinated me the most. I think the evolution of the Bug and Meyer gang. This guy, Ralph Salerno, who was a fascinating guy who headed the New York Prime Strike Force, Mafia investigators He’s been dead for about I think 10 or 15 years But I spent about Two or three hours Interviewing him A long time ago Didn’t he write a book Didn’t he write a book Called The Crime Confederation Or something like that Yes he did Yeah And it’s excellent So he knew Meyer Lansky He had met Bugsy Siegel Back once In the early 1940s He knew Frank Costello He knew all of these people And it was fascinating To, to hear his stories. And he said that during the time of the Bug and Meyer gang, they were the most vicious gang in New York. And they had a complete menu for crimes that they would commit on your behalf. Burglaries, murders, throwing people out of windows, breaking arms and legs, killing by stabbing, killing by shooting, killing by knifing. And each one had a price. And he said they actually had it printed. It was like a menu and you could check off what you wanted.

[21:40] Crazy. And then he said, as they got more and more involved in prohibition, they got out of this and it evolved into Murder Incorporated, which had about 400 members, primarily Jewish and Italian gangsters. And it was run by Albert Anastasia and Lepke Bookhalter.

[22:05] And when Thomas Dewey came into power, he wanted very much to convict these guys, but, Murder Incorporated had this fascinating idea that every member of Murder Incorporated would receive a monthly retainer and then it paid a special price for committing murders. And the more ambitious the member was, the more murders he would commit. So there were a couple who were really very ambitious and did a lot of murders. And each one had a specialty. So there was this one guy named Abe Hidtwist Relis, who only killed people with an ice pick in the back of the neck. And then he would leave the body in a car, talking about getting rid of bodies, and he would burn the body and leave it in the car and let other people know who were the relatives that he had been done away with. And then there was a guy named Pittsburgh Phil, who was the most ambitious of them, who supposedly committed about 100 to 150 murders because he just loved getting money for each one that he committed.

[23:15] Then there was a guy named Louis Capone, who’s no relation to Al. He worked with a partner named Mendy Weiss, and the two of them went out and killed people together. They thought it was a fun event for them. It was like a boy’s night out. Who we’re going to kill today. Weren’t they two of them that got the electric chair? Yes, they did. And there’s a picture of them on the train up to Singh on their way to the electric chair. And they’re laughing. This is nothing. This is just another fun time for us. And yeah, I think there were four of them who finally went to the electric chair. And then one member of this was a guy named Charlie the Bud Workman, who finally got indicted for the murder of Dutch Schultz. He was the one who carried out the murder of Dutch Schultz for the mob. And he got, I think he was 30 years in prison. But according to his son…

[24:13] Who is a PGA golfer, who is well-known in PGA circles as a very good golf competitor, said that the mob took care of his family for the entire time that Workman was in prison because he never spoke about anybody else. He really observed the rules of a murder, and they appreciated him for that. So that whole episode was like a corporation murder, which is why they called it Murder, Inc., that would go out and kill people on orders only from the mafia. They only worked for the mafia. You couldn’t hire them if you weren’t a member of the mafia. And it had to go through a mafia boss for the instructions to come down to them. A soldier couldn’t tell them what to do. Even a capo couldn’t tell them. It had to go up to a boss, the boss had to approve it, and then assign someone to do it. And they all worked out of a candy store in Brooklyn called Midnight Roses because it was open 24 hours a day. And the phone would ring there from giving whoever it was instructions about who was to be killed, where they were to be killed, how they were to do it, and so forth and so on.

[25:27] So what was also interesting is even though Bugsy Siegel had left the Bug and Meyer gang, he still loved participating in murder. He liked killing people. And his partner in these murders was a guy named Frankie Carbo, who became a big deal in boxing. He controlled most of the boxing in America up until at the time of Sonny Liston. And his partner in this was a man named Blinky Palermo.

[25:59] And according to Ralph Natale, who for a while had been the boss of the Philadelphia crime family, it was Frankie Carbo who was sent by the mob to kill Bugsy Siegel. Because if he was caught or Bugsy Siegel saw him around, he wouldn’t suspect that he was his killer because they were friends and they had operated as partners together. So this goes back to what we were talking about earlier. It’s your friend who comes closest to you and then arranges you to be assassinated. So I found that whole story just fascinating. Interesting. I’ll tell you what. And there’s those and a whole lot more stories in this, isn’t there, Jeff? Yes, there are. I think that the book covers pretty much the mob history, beginning with the founding of the five families, going all the way up through Sammy the Bulgurvano’s testimony against John Gotti and the commission trial, where they decapitated the heads of the five families. Not literally, folks. Not literally. Not literally. We didn’t literally decapitate. Rudy Giuliano, he tried to. He tried to. He tried to. Metaphorically, he decapitated the heads of the five families. Exactly.

[27:15] You know, what was interesting, though, is in the 1930s, you had Thomas Dewey. In the 1960s, you had Robert Kennedy, who went after the mob. And then later on, you had Rudy Giuliani going after the mob. And the mob always managed to reorganize itself and figure out a new way of existing. They were very opportunistic and they always managed to find a way to keep going, even if it was very low key, which is what it is now, where they operate in the shadows and they don’t have any John Gottis or Al Capone’s out there getting a lot of attention for themselves. They’re still out there doing things. Yeah. Yeah. They finally learned something about that getting publicity. And most recently, they put together a whole scheme, and this goes way back, of cheating people. Big whales, I call them whales, of rich men that like to gamble and brush up against kind of the dark side and cheat them at cards. They’ve been doing that for years. They just do it under goes to clear black to the Friars Club scam in Los Angeles where Ronnie Roselli and some others had a spotter, would see who had what cards in what’s hands, then would tell another player. And so now there’s just more electronic, but the same game just upgraded to electronics.

[28:30] That’s right. What someone I spoke to interviewed said, he said they’re very involved in electronic gambling poker machines and that kind of thing. And a lot of offshore gambling and offshore money laundering. And to some extent, even drug dealing now. And they’re still very involved in New York in the construction business. Oh, really? Yeah. Union business. They’re still in it, huh? And I know in Kansas City, there’s a couple of examples where they put money into a buy here, pay here car dealership into a title loan place because there’s a huge rate of interest on those things. And there’s a lot of scams that go down out of those places, especially the old crap cars and put them together and sell them to poor people for they’ve got $500 in the car and they sell it to them for $2,000. They charge them a 25% interest and then go repo it when the car breaks down, turn around and patch it up and sell it again. So there’s always schemes going on out there to mob will put their money into. Oh, it’s incredible. I knew of one scheme where they would They would sell trucks to people and give them a special route. And so on that route, they could make enough money to pay off the loan on the truck. But then they would take away the route from them. They couldn’t pay off the truck. So they would repossess the truck and sell it to someone else and do it all over again.

[29:50] Oh, I know. They got to tell you that. And Joey Messino and the Bananos, they organized the tow main wagons, the lunch truck, the snack wagons. Right, exactly. Organize them. And then they start extorting money, formed an association. And then to get to good spots, then you had to kick money to them. And just to be part of the organization, that was kicking money to them. There’s always something. They always manage to find a place where they can make money. And it’s like whack-a-mole. You can stop them here, you can stop them there, and then they pop up in three other places.

[30:24] Really all right jeffrey susman i’m so happy to talk to you again i haven’t talked to you for a while and i hope everything else is everything’s going okay for you in new york city yep i’m working on a new book uh what are you working on now oh my god you are so prolific i look on your amazon page just when i was getting ready to do this trying to think of some of those other titles Oh, my God. I’m working on a book about the Garment Center. Ah, interesting. Only because my family was involved in that business, and they had to deal with the mob in various ways, with trucking companies, unions, and so forth. And since I knew that, and I had a lot of information, a lot of contacts, I thought I would tackle that next. I remember when I had my marketing PR business back in the 1970s.

[31:16] I had a client who was in the fitness business, and I had a cousin of my mother’s who was a very famous dress designer at the time, and he had a big showroom on 7th Avenue, which is in the garment center. I went to see him because I wanted to see if I could get a deal for my client to manufacture exercise clothes and brand it with her name. I made a date to have lunch with this cousin of mine, and he said, come up to my showroom. we’ll meet for lunch, And so I got to the showroom, and I called out his name when I walked in. It was empty. And this guy comes running out of the back, and he just has a shirt on, and he has a shoulder holster, .38 caliber gun in it. And he says to me, who the F are you? I said, I’m so-and-so’s cousin. I’m here to have lunch with him. He disappeared into the back. And a couple of minutes later my mother’s cousin comes out and i said who was that what was that about he says i don’t want to talk about it now i’ll tell you all for lunch so we go down to a restaurant around the corner and i asked him again and he says he said he couldn’t have his dresses delivered to any department store unless he made a deal with yeah i forgot if it was the gambinos or the lucasies that he had to take this guy on as a partner otherwise the trucks wouldn’t deliver his garments. And there was nothing he could do about it. It was either that or go out of business.

[32:45] I’ll tell you what, they’re voracious. They’re greedy and voracious and don’t care. Just give me those, show me the money. That’s all it is. It’s all about money and any way to get it. And then there’s always a threat of murder behind it. If you don’t cooperate, think of the worst thing that can happen to you. And that’s what’ll happen. Yeah. I’ve had guys over the years tell I’m like, oh, you ought to throw in with one of those ex-mobsters that’s doing podcasts and try to do something with them. I say, I ain’t doing business with them. They play by their rules. I play by society’s rules. And I don’t have time to mess with that. Yeah. And that was a smart thing to do. Because also, when I had this fitness client, I met someone who was… I didn’t know what was connected to the mob, but a mutual friend, this guy said that he wanted to set up fitness centers all around the country for my clients. So I mentioned this to a mutual friend and he said, whatever you don’t go into business with this guy, I said, regret it for the rest of your life. So I advised my client not to do it.

[33:49] Yeah. Cause initially before we knew that it sounded like a great opportunity. And then when you investigate, it’s not such a great opportunity. Yeah, really. Speaking of that, we tell stories for hours. I just heard a story. We had a relocated mobster, a guy that testified against Gigante, came here to Kansas City. And he was, of course, under witness protection and he’s got an assumed name. And he befriends a guy that has a fitness center. He has a franchise of Gold’s Gym or something. And he has a fitness center. And he talks this guy into taking him on, investing a little money in it, taking him on as his partner. Within the next couple of years, this mobster, he’s got two of his kids working there and neither one of them are really doing anything, but they’re drawing a salary and the money’s trickling out. And the guy, the local guy, he just walks away from it because this guy’s planned by the mob’s rules. So he just ended up walking away from it, did something else. So it’s do not go into business with these guys. No, never. Never.

[34:48] Jeffrey Suspett, it’s a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be with you again, Gary. It’s always a pleasure. Thank you very much.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, steps outside traditional Mafia territory and into a shadowy world just as dangerous—and just as fascinating: the international theft of ultra-rare automobiles.  Gary is joined by author Stayton Bonner, former senior editor at Rolling Stone, and legendary car-recovery specialist Joe Ford, the real-life figure behind Bonner’s book The Million Dollar Car Detective.

At the center of the story is a breathtaking pre-World War II automobile—the Talbot-Lago Teardrop Coupé—once described as the most beautiful car in the world. Stolen from a Milwaukee industrialist’s garage in 2001, the car vanished into the international underground of elite collectors, forged paperwork, and high-stakes deception. Joe Ford explains how he became the go-to investigator when rare cars worth millions disappear—and why stolen vehicles are far harder to recover than stolen art. What follows is a years-long global hunt involving disgruntled mechanics, fabricated titles, shell corporations, Swiss intermediaries, and a billionaire buyer now locked in civil litigation.

Bonner adds rich historical context, tracing the car’s glamorous past—from European aristocracy to Hollywood royalty—and exposing how loneliness, obsession, and greed often surround these legendary machines. The conversation expands into other notorious cases, including the disappearance of the original James Bond Aston Martin from Goldfinger, and how wealthy collectors sometimes knowingly harbor stolen artifacts.

This episode is a true-crime story without guns or gangs—but filled with deception, betrayal, and the relentless pursuit of justice across borders.

If you love investigative work, high-end crime, and stories that feel like James Bond meets Gone in 60 Seconds, this one’s for you.

🔑 Key Topics Covered

The theft of a $7 million Talbot-Lago Teardrop Coupé

How stolen cars are laundered through forged provenance

Why rare automobiles are harder to recover than fine art

Civil vs. criminal liability in stolen property cases

The global black market for elite collector vehicles

The missing Goldfinger Aston Martin mystery

How billionaires and shell companies complicate recovery

📘 Featured Book

The Million Dollar Car Detective by Stayton Bonner

 

🎧 About the Guests

Stayton Bonner – Former Rolling Stone senior editor and investigative journalist

Joe Ford – International car-theft investigator specializing in ultra-rare vehicles

Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire

Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee”

Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information.

To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here

To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here. 

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Tanscript

Gary jenkins: [00:00:00] well, hey, all your wire tapper’s. Good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence unit detective. And I have a story today. It’s not particularly about the mafia, but it’s about a subject I’m really interested in.

That’s fast cars and rear cars. And, and I’m kind of a gearhead, as you all know, and love my motorcycles. But, uh, this is about some really cool cars and, and I have here. A couple of guys that, uh, particularly one Joe Ford who is a, a guy, a detective that goes out and finds rare stolen cars, which I think is just fascinating.

So I have Staton Bonner, who’s a former senior editor Rolling Stone. He’s written a book called The Million Dollar Detective, and that million dollar detective is Joe Ford. So welcome guys. Gary, thanks for having us. All right. So, uh, I, I guess let’s start off with, with Staton. Tell me a little bit about yourself.

You, you are a writer for Rolling Stone and, and written another book. I, I see. And, uh, so just tell us a little bit about yourself.

Stayton: Uh, yes, [00:01:00] sir. Former senior editor Rolling Stone Magazine wrote a book a few years ago, uh, Altru Stories. About a bare and knuckle boxer working to give his daughter a, a better life in New York City through these underground fights.

This story though, uh, is the most a amazing story I’ve come across, uh, in my years as a journalist. I don’t know if you’re a fan of James Bond gone in 60 seconds. Catch me if you can. Uh, but this story is right in line with that. You know, a lot of my work as a reporter editor is just looking for stories.

So I was scouring regional newspapers. When I came across this small story in a Milwaukee publication and it just immediately grabbed me, it jumped off. Uh, you know, in 2001, a $7 million stolen car was stolen in the middle of the night in Milwaukee from an industrialist private garage.

Three men in overalls cut security lines broke in. Absconded in the middle of the night with this very rare vehicle case closed with cold years later, a [00:02:00] detective Joe Ford gets a call from the French Alps, and a uh, disgruntled mechanic said he knew the whereabouts of this stolen car that authorities have been looking for around the world for years.

That really set off the chase that kicks off this book. It’s about, obviously it’s about a rare car, but it’s interesting because it gets into the veneer just underneath this high society world of people like Ralph Lauren and various heads of of industry. Buying and selling rare cars for many tens of millions of dollars.

There is a criminal enterprise underneath that, as you have with any rare art world dealing in fakes, forgeries stolen goods and all of that. And that’s when Joe Ford, the car detective comes in. You know, I talked with authorities police FBI, you know, there’s not a dedicated unit to recovering stolen cars as they have with stolen artwork.

So when a, when something a 10 million do dollar car gets taken. Uh, he, they said, they told me there’s one guy they [00:03:00] call and, uh, that’s Joe Ford. You don’t have to be a car person to love this book. The Million Dollar Car Detective just is really a good cat and mouse chase story. Um, and I’m, I’m thrilled to be here to talk about it.

Gary jenkins: Great. We all love cat and mouse chase story as I do anyhow. So Joe Ford, uh, tell us about yourself. How did you end up in this position to be the million dollar car theft detective?

Joe Ford: Accidentally. I started out as an architect in New Orleans, then went to law school, didn’t practice law, but I had a classic car dealership in Louisiana and in Florida.

And being involved in the car world, you learn about things. And then it was, uh, years later I ended up recovering a stolen acid martin for a guy and it was successful. And then, uh, got into a contract to recover a stolen $18 million Ferrari race car. And was successful and then heard about this from a French mechanic who is hadn’t been paid by somebody in Switzerland.

So he spills the [00:04:00] beans and, and gives me a clue. And I’ve been on this hunt for a car taken in 2001 and I’ve been litigating for over eight years now against an LLC owned by a billionaire set up just to buy this car outta Switzerland. And. My opinion is it was set up because he knew it was stolen, he knew it had paperwork issues and knew he would have to litigate to clear title.

And I’m now litigating to clear that title, but I intend to retrieve the car. And for me and my partner, I partnered up with the heirs of the original Milwaukee theft of victims. And, uh, we’re in court now against this

Gary jenkins: LLC. So, if I remember my, uh, property law from law school is you can’t, if you don’t have good title to something, you can’t pass it on to somebody else.

Any, any. Passing on is an illegal transaction, and whoever pays money for something with a bad title just by eats it, eats it, is my, if I remember right, [00:05:00] that correct.

Joe Ford: That that’s correct. And it, it goes down the chain. You can buy a stolen car from one guy, he can sell it to another, he can sell it to another.

Nobody acquires title because the thief didn’t have it, and each guy sues the prior guy to try to get his money back and the property gets returned to the victims.

Gary jenkins: That’s,

Joe Ford: that is the, the law of the world.

Gary jenkins: Interesting. I remember my law school, right? It’s been a few years. Yeah. But I remember that. Right.

Uh, so, you know, in this, this world, you know, we know about the jewel thefts. You know, the Marlboro Diamond never appeared back. The Chicago outfit guy stole this Marlboro diamond in, in London and mailed it to somebody. It never did reappear. Many times these paintings don’t ever reappear for years and years.

And we always, there’s always a speculation. There’s these, these, reclusive, super wealthy collectors or, uh, Arabian Saudi Arabian princes or something that will keep these things. Are any of those rumors true? Is that what happens with these cars? I mean, how do you hide a car? Especially one is what [00:06:00] this car that you’re looking for is a Talbot Lego.

Teardrop coop. Really distinctive, looking real. And I’ll have a picture of this up there, guys. Really distinctive looking car. So how, oh yeah, I see it up on your, uh, uh, up over your head there. So h how does this work? I guess a little bit about how this works.

Joe Ford: Lemme

Gary jenkins: just

Joe Ford: go ahead,

Stayton: lemme just give a little context.

So just for the big picture, Gary, you know, uh. Again for your listeners, I’m not sure, you know, rare cars it’s relatively smaller niche market in high-end collectibles, but it’s also, uh, the fastest rising sector. So you have, you know, folks who make a lot of money you know, they wanna diversify their assets.

It could be any number of things including, Picassos, Basquiats, uh, whatever. But what’s a lot more fun, when I interviewed all these people, is buying a super rare car. ’cause unlike something, a piece of art, you hang on the wall, you get to drive this thing.

Gary jenkins: Yeah.

Stayton: So the rare, you know, so the rare car market is really one of the [00:07:00] fastest growing markets.

It, it is really largely due to Ralph Lauren. He was a guy from the Bronx, just a working class kid. He grew up loving cars. So once he made money with Polo, uh, he started buying and collecting these old, Ferrari racers a lot of times that were just beat up, banged up. These things were raced in all sorts of.

Different competitions across Europe, just charred husks. Uh, but he would find them with his team and kind of restore them with the original items that they would find and make it as as true to period correct as possible. And then in the past decade or so as a market, the rare car market.

Has increased in value by more than 300%. It’s bypassed assets like, you know, collectible wines, jewelry, artwork, everything else. So there’s a whole hierarchy of cars within that at the basic level, a rare car. Two things. It’s obviously by definition there’s not many of them. A lot of times these are pre-World War [00:08:00] II vehicles that were custom made in Europe by the, the highest level of artisan, uh, in the world.

And then number two, a lot of times they, they signify a very special. Innovation in technology or design or just something that makes it special? Obviously, Ferrari, if it raced, if it won something in a competition, if it was a car owned by Steve McQueen, right from Bullet. Yeah, something like that. If it’s a very rare special car, that’s where it gets to this next level.

I mean, I’m sure a lot of your readers, our listeners have a. You know, a, a rare muscle car that their dad or uncle left around, they kind of tinker on in the garage or whatever. And that, that is a layer. But this is a whole nother one where these, these become worth tens of millions of dollars. And just like any rare asset if you have a lot of value and it’s hard to find paperwork.

For instance to verify these things, you have to do a lot of, of digging, but it also opens up an opportunity for a lot of fraud and theft. And that’s [00:09:00] really what has happened in the rare car market. And that’s, that’s where they call someone like Joe. Joe, I don’t know if you want to add anything else to that.

Joe Ford: Yeah. It doesn’t happen often because every thief soon learns you can’t sell the stolen item. Yeah. So then the only pathway to try to legitimize a sale is to try to fabricate paperwork. Or create a paper trail to somehow explain how you came to possess this stolen car. And in this instance, the paperwork was all fabricated, including forged notary stamps, forged signatures, a forged paperwork trail as if it, the car went from this guy to that guy.

And it’s just, but what? You just debunk all that and uncover the lies that are trying to paper over a

Gary jenkins: theft. So, uh, your investigation in this started with a disgruntled mechanic over in Europe or in France, getting a hold of you. ’cause your, your name is well known out in that subculture, I would assume, and how to get [00:10:00] a hold of you.

Then you start find out where it is, and then you have to start looking at that paperwork and discrediting all that paperwork in order to establish a, a claim to it. Would that be, tell us about that trail.

Joe Ford: Yeah, well the first thing I do is, uh, it’s a clue that I get out of this French mechanic ’cause I don’t know if he’s telling me the truth or not.

So what I did is I located the original theft victims and said, Hey, by the way, did you ever sell the rights to this car at any time? And the, the theft victim’s there says, hell no. I inherited that thing. We didn’t know where it was, so we just waited. Couldn’t complete probate, so we just waited. So I said I got a proposal.

I’ll enter into a contract with you where I’ll pony up the money and I’ll go find and recover this car. I have a clue. It’s somewhere in Europe. I don’t know who owns it or who’s possessing it. It’s gonna take years. We may never find it. But if you want, and uh, so I did sign a contract with the heirs and then so began the cat and mouse.

Or I should say cat and [00:11:00] rat. You know, mice are, mice are usually innocent. This is a cat and rat situation. Cat rat.

Gary jenkins: That’s a good one. So what was your first step then? Did you fly over to France and meet this mechanic and look him in the eye?

Joe Ford: No, I, I teased out more data from the mechanic. I said, well, what, can you tell me what, what’s, what, do you know?

Why do you suspect this guy took it? Why do you suspect it’s stolen? I get some conflicting clues like he, he wouldn’t commit to where it was. He wouldn’t commit to, uh, photographs of the stolen car, but he did send me a photograph of this other car and it turns out the thief had gone back to the estate.

Once the victim died, he went to the estate to buy some other parts, and in the purchase of these other parts unrelated to the stolen car, he generates, he gets signatures and then begins generating a paper trail as if he’s buying the stolen teardrop. You know, paperwork to look like he’s buying this car.

But in fact, he was buying [00:12:00] an ordinary body of a black sedan. It kind of looks like a frumpy old Ford model T.

Yeah. And um, so with that contact with the estate, this thief then fabricates paperwork. Then waits years and years and ultimately restores the car really nicely to museum caliber restoration.

You could bring it to Pebble Beach Concord in a heartbeat. Wow. And it would win. And so he restores it and then he sells it to this. Innocent purchaser. I don’t think he’s so innocent. And that’s who I’m in court with now. He sells it in Switzerland and this guy imports it and he waits a year before even trying to get a title, which is a very suspicious act.

Yeah. And when he does apply for a title in Illinois, it pops up as stolen in the state of Illinois. Contacts the state police who contact the Wisconsin Police, who then contact us and say, Hey guys, we found your car. It just popped up. And so, uh, you know, I, I call those people and [00:13:00] say, listen, why don’t you just hand it over and go back against this phony seller?

And it’s been a fight ever since. ’cause they won’t do the right thing. They just won’t, they’ll, they’re spending millions on attorneys rather than give up the car and do the right thing.

Stayton: So, Gary, I should, I should add, give you a little bit of context here. First off, I obviously interviewed Joe Ford for the book.

I also interviewed the alleged thief, Chris Gardner. Oh really? Uh, who I should say denied all charges and the charges, criminal charges were dropped against him. So let’s clarify that up top. Let me give you a little bit of context here. ’cause what was particularly interesting here, uh, was Joe Ford and the alleged thiefs, uh, background together.

They both came up in New Orleans. Oh really? Uh, working together in the, uh, rare car import export. Business starting off with gray market imports. These were European cars, uh, that you could buy and import from overseas for cheaper [00:14:00] than you could buy here. Uh, and you were supposed to do some type of modification to make them street legal here.

And that was kind of a booming market before, uh, basically the industry and, and government closed it down. But Joe and, and the alleged thief, Chris. We’re in business together and we’re friends and did work together for years, uh, until they had a massive falling out. Over, uh, various disagreements regarding car disputes and land disputes.

But, basically that was one aspect of this that was compelling to me, uh, was, was Joe and the alleged thief had this his history together. When it comes to the car, the $7 million TBO logo. It was a car that the Rob report once called the most beau beautiful car in the world. One of only two models built with this race car engine. And I think what’s really interesting to me, it is a, as a journalist in reporting this story, uh, was exploring just the [00:15:00] histories of all of these rare cars. They would. Trade hands over the years. Uh, this one was built in, uh, 1938 by FII fci, these Italian immigrants to France.

And it was, you know, uh, made it for basically, we’re not entirely sure but Parisian royalty was probably the best guess. And they would show these things off. You would buy matching outfits, almost like Downton Abbey era to go with the car and you would, go to these grand events.

Uh, and it was really almost like a luxury accessory, if you will for royalty overseas. This car was imported into the United States in 1939 by Luigi Chinetti. A former Italian race car driver who won Lamont three times that year. He sold the teardrop to Tommy Lee, uh, who was the son of, uh, basically a, a wealthy businessman in, uh, Hollywood.

In fact, literally the Hollywood sign was [00:16:00] on his Lee Mountain or his, his former mountain. He owned all the ca Cadillac dealerships throughout California. Got a piece of it. So his son was like this Playboy, who would. State Starlets raced these cars in the, uh, Mojave Desert, um, and lived this really extravagant lifestyle.

He actually, in 1950, had a road accident, left him in chronic pain, and ended up jumping from, uh, a 12 story building, killing himself and leaving behind this world class collection of cars, including the teardrop. It finally found its way, uh, purchased by Roy Leki, a self-made millionaire. And, uh, and the founder of Monarch Plastic Products, uh, this company he ran in his warehouse in, um, in Milwaukee.

And, you know, it was an interesting story of, of Leki. Uh, basically his, his wife died of cancer. His son, a pilot, died in an airplane crash. He, according to all reports, became pre pretty reclusive and withdrawn. And he really [00:17:00] focused on this car. So this garage where he kept it. Became piled up with junk pieces, all sorts of, of different things.

And he, talking with, um, his nephew and, and various people who knew him, including Jay Leno. I interviewed Jay Leno, uh, who went out to look at the car. He became lonely and he started putting out advertisements that he had this rare vehicle in car trade magazines and saying. Purporting, he wanted to sell it.

I, you know, talking to his family, they, they think he just wanted, was lonely and kind of wanted talk to people to meet people. Yeah. Wanted talk to people. ’cause people would come out there. Jay Leno. Oh yeah.

Gary jenkins: Uh, flew

Stayton: out there. He flew out and looked at it’s kind.

Gary jenkins: It’s kind of the Ulti Ultimate Barn. Find the Ultimate Barn find.

Yeah.

Stayton: That’s the ultimate bar find. That’s right. And Jay Leno said, you know, something about it just didn’t feel right. I didn’t do it. But in the course of that, that is, is when you know, the alleged thief came and saw it and his representative and, you know, aft afterwards. That’s what led to the car being stolen.

But it’s this [00:18:00] really interesting backstory, not only of Joe and the alleged thief, Chris Gardner. But also of this car and each, you know, the book details, this, his, this car’s history and other ones as well. That it’s, it was just one, one crazy story after.

Gary jenkins: Really, it’s kind of the ultimate cautionary tale for you guys that have some kind of a cool car out there.

I, I, my ne my, uh, cousin, he had a muscle car stuck out in the barn, out on the farm, but his brother lived on the farm and his brother had all kinds of, drinkers and different people coming out to the farm. You know, drinking and talking to him, and all of a sudden the trailer and the muscle car is gone and has never been found since.

So, not expensive enough for Joe Ford to go after, but still. Mm-hmm. So you gotta be careful who sees what’s what you got in, in that, uh, when you got something like that, it’s crazy. Yeah. Joe, uh, go ahead Joe. You had you started to say something. I was

Joe Ford: just gonna say, just to add on that. The first thing you do when you get a car is [00:19:00] apply for a title immediately.

Yeah. And before you actually purchase a car, it, you can ask the police to do a VIN check. Just run this vin. Has it been reported stolen? ’cause the police maintain a database to protect and prevent against auto theft of stolen property, especially cars. And that’s something that was, this car was listed as stolen in the database.

Yet these, uh, this LLC owned by this billionaire still decided to buy it. It’s just an incredible story and to me it’s a, it’s sort of a, if I had summarized my opinion, it’s a sophisticated laundering of a stolen car by someone with means. Yeah. Because had I not partnered up with the victim, he didn’t have resources or knowledge to battle.

Gary jenkins: Yeah.

Joe Ford: So, you know, this, this guy would’ve steamrolled him.

Gary jenkins: Yeah, so, oh yeah. And you got the resources. I tell you what, uh, as a lawyer, I had a guy come to me and he had a, a dispute with somebody, his landlord. And I says, this landlord got money. He said, yeah. And, and is he a nutcase? Yeah. [00:20:00] If you go after a nutcase with money in the court system, you know, get ready there.

You, you ain’t ever gonna get any satisfaction. They’re gonna keep you tied up for years. It’s not worth it. But, so that’s side.

Joe Ford: Go ahead. I, I can’t make up I don’t think I’m dealing with a nutcase, but it’s just someone I’m sure who believes he was in the right. But if he would look over his own documents, he would see that no.

In fact, maybe you, you were let down. You, you took some shortcuts, you didn’t do your homework. Yeah. And uh, all you need to do is give up the car and then go after the guy who sold you a stolen car. It’s that simple.

Gary jenkins: Yeah. I have to ask, as a lawyer, are you in a American, United States courts, or are you in European courts?

Joe Ford: I’m in, uh, Wisconsin because the, the car was stolen outta Milwaukee, so a Milwaukee state court. That’s where I’m at. Yeah. But the car is in Europe

Gary jenkins: or is it back in the United Oh, it’s back in the United States.

Joe Ford: Okay. It’s sequestered in Ma Massachusetts in a really nice shop in Massachusetts where it’s climate controlled storage.

So. We just, once we finish this [00:21:00] lawsuit, you know, we’ll be awarded the car. Yeah, yeah.

Stayton: Yeah. So, Gary, Gary, just, just for your clarity for your listeners too so once Joe was notified of the stolen car’s existence by this mechanic who had you know, been working with the alleged de. That’s when he began really researching it.

Uh, the purchaser of this vehicle, a very wealthy individual who actually started very interesting story, started his own dental practice built it up, built his own software system to handle his own backend for his multiple dental offices. Lo and behold, that software system then became worth a lot more than pulling people’s teeth.

And he started, uh, a company. That is, is now worth, hundreds of millions of dollars on paper at least. And, um, that’s when he, he began buying and selling rare cars. This individual bought the car, uh, for over $7 million you know, imported it into the United States. And when he tried to register it, uh, that’s when it triggered as being [00:22:00] stolen on a database list.

Okay. That’s right. And that’s when authorities went to seize it. So the car is still in, in litigation and dispute. Uh, the crim, the criminal side of it was charges were dismissed. The alleged thief was arrested overseas, uh, brought over to the United States, held it in, uh, in prison in Wisconsin for years.

And until, uh, finally charges were dropped, and then he went free. And but the actual dispute over ownership of the car continues to this day, and the car is currently being held as Joe said by a restoration shock outside of Boston until all matters are settled. Wow.

Gary jenkins: So this, go ahead.

This super rich guy was arrested over in Europe, brought back in custody and put in a county jail, probably two or three county jails by the time they got him back to Wisconsin and held there. The,

Stayton: so the, the wealthy individual who purchased the vehicle’s, been in the United States the whole time.

He’s just a car collector. Oh, okay. This is the in between the, [00:23:00] the intermediary.

Gary jenkins: Yeah. He, okay, I

Stayton: gotcha. He, well, he, he was the purchaser and so he bought the vehicle, he hired people to go do the vetting overseas in Switzerland. On the vehicle. It was the alleged thief, uh, uh, who was living overseas, and he was the individual who was arrested and brought over and the charges were dropped.

Joe Ford: I gotcha. By the way, the charges were dropped because my partner, who was the key witness died and the west attorney decided that he might not be able to prove his case without this key witness. Mm-hmm. So is this guy

Gary jenkins: kind of guy that goes around and spotting cars like that and stealing, was that kind of his, his occupation, if you will?

Or is this just a happenstance thing?

Joe Ford: Well, uh, it. The FBI located the other two thieves who did this heist for this car, and they said that this guy from Switzerland was also planning to steal some other cars and asking for their help. Those never came to fruition, but apparently there, there was the [00:24:00] game plan that these cars the few that were not already in museums were targets.

Because these cars belong in museums. They’re pieces of automotive history that as well as phenomenal design. This car has a racing chassis. A racing motor. That’s why when Tommy Lee, the man in California, would bring it out to the Mojave Dry Lakes, he would win against the hot rods. And this ball was 1938 and he was racing against 1945 cars.

It’s, you know, it’s that good of a car. Wow. And,

Stayton: and to answer your question, Gary, yes. I, I interviewed one of the, uh, a person who said he was a thief, uh, who stole the car that night, along with, uh, the alleged mastermind behind it. Um, and he, he described to me in great detail how it went down, how they cased the place, uh, went in after, after dark, uh, and then went through this very arduous journey.

To you know, take out what was in pieces, this rare car and put it in the back of a, of a [00:25:00] truck and drive it from Milwaukee back down south to Florida. And you know, at one point he described really the paperwork, uh, and the alleged thief that the person he said was behind it all you know, knowing exactly where to go and take it all.

But that said, there, there were some key pieces of paperwork left behind. Which the alleged thief pointed out. But I did also interview a gentleman in Texas who said he had been defrauded by this same alleged thief years ago. He was a wealthy Texan, uh, who just, you know was really into cars.

And what he alleged was he had bought what he thought was a specific type of car when it arrived at the airport there in Dallas. And he went to go pick it up. It was not the same type of car. It was kind of modified to look like what he thought he had bought. It was actually a car of lesser value, and, and it, he had trouble making it work.

He then pursued this individual for years and he says he eventually found through his legal team the alleged thief in Florida, and basically running [00:26:00] an operation of, of buying, of taking cars and then remaking them to seem they were a, a different car of higher value. So there, there, there are trails of, uh, other allegations, uh, against him.

Gary jenkins: Got another cautionary

Joe Ford: tale

Gary jenkins: there.

Joe Ford: It’s like with fine art, you have to come up through the ranks to know about these vehicles being so special. And then if you go to the dark side, you might try to counterfeit documents or counterfeit a car. You might buy a chassis of a similar car, modify it, put a brand new body on it, and try to sell it as an original.

So it’s just like counterfeiting artwork. And these guys are masters. I mean, this guy who did this was a con artist, this Chris Gardner Con artist. He earned his name artist. He’s a con artist.

Gary jenkins: It’s crazy. Joe, is there other, uh, car cases that are kind of interesting you’d like to tell people about?

Joe Ford: Uh, there are others and they are very interesting, but I can’t go [00:27:00] into it.

No.

Gary jenkins: We talked a little bit. What about the Aston Martin? That was, uh, one of the James Bond cars and Goldfinger that disappeared out of a uh, uh, uh. Airport garage down in Florida somewhere. What, tell me a little bit about that one.

Joe Ford: There’s lots of theories. In fact, one of the fees in this case suspected the mastermind.

Chris Gardner was also involved in that theft. We have no evidence at that time, but it’s, it’s a good working theory to begin. And that car, I think, has been located, I saw some pictures recently by somebody who I, I can’t name, and it was in, in a collection. And just like you said before, there are some wealthy collectors who just don’t care about anything other than having this coveted item in their basement or garage.

So, and let me,

Stayton: let me give you a little context on the car, Gary. So this was a car. From the James Bond film Goldfinger starring Sean Connery, [00:28:00] obviously the very famed Aston Martin from that movie, which really kickstarted all the James Bond Aston Martin cars. So there, there were two vehicles made for that film.

Or, you know, used in that film, one was kind of a, a road car where they would actually film the scenes driving. And then the other was this stuck car, right? Because that was the car that had the machine guns pop up, had, flame throwers, all sorts of stuff on it. You know, when they, when they finished filming, they just got rid of it.

They were like, this thing is worthless. Who cares? Uh, so that car traded hands for years between various collectors ended up. In the hands of, of a wealthy real estate mogul, uh, in the Boca Raton area. And he, he was an interesting guy. I think he had Indiana Jones’ Bull Whip. He had, uh, some items from the Wizard of Oz.

He was just a collector. Yeah. Uh, and he kept this car in a hangar, uh, in his private you know, airport hangar there. And in the middle of the night. Kind of a similar [00:29:00] deal. Thieves broke into the hangar. No one’s exactly sure what happened. Uh, there were various. Theories. There were apparently, skid marks there that, and indicated one theory was it was loaded onto a cargo plane and flew off into the night.

Other people, uh, would, this made news when it was stolen, uh, you know, claim to have seen it all sorts of places. It was in the Keys, it was somewhere in Appalachia. Uh, nobody really knew. But again, uh, it was, it was probably one of the more famous stolen cars of all time now worth. Millions of dollars. I interviewed another individual and there’s a whole subculture.

I interviewed various detectives beyond Joe. A lot of them work for these insurance companies. So basically the police, frankly, probably are, are busy on, on other things. They’re not gonna be the folks who are gonna find this stuff. It’s really the high-end insurance company who’s on the hook for the tens of millions of dollars.

They have an incentive to have their own [00:30:00] investigator. You know, tracking down these cars to try to find ’em. So I talked to an individual working with them, or these insurance companies. He had been looking for this car for years. There was a theory, it was bought by a, a, you know, some wealthy individual in the Middle East, and it was in some warehouse full of all sorts of cars.

But really it was in the course of this investigation when, as Joe points out, I, I did interview a person who said he had stolen the Tableau logo along with the alleged mastermind. He said he recalled this person and the FBI agent said that they had heard this person talking about, uh, the James Bond car.

And so that was a theory. They, it was, he was around the same time, it was similar, uh, circumstances. So, uh, there was a theory which of course the alleged thief, uh, disputed, uh, that, that he had somehow been involved with that. But again maybe Joe has an update. I don’t know.

Joe Ford: No updates. Sorry.

Gary jenkins: He is not talking.

But it’s, it’s covered in, it’s covered in the book. It’s too soon. Okay. Oh, [00:31:00] alright. Cool. Good luck guys. You gotta get this book. It, its, it’s a fascinating look into this. World that we usually don’t, you know, kind of hear about and it doesn’t make a hell of a movie. You know, they’ve got that gone in 60 seconds and they out and steal all these fancy cars.

But the actual tracing of, you know, who the casing of the place, picking the car, casing it, getting it, the paperwork trail that going from one owner to another and, you know, over into Europe and everything. Make a heck of a movie. Maybe you guys will get the screen rights sold on this.

Stayton: What you think.

Yeah. And, and there’s a, you know, and Joe in this alleged thief that had a fallout earlier over another stolen car, a rare, uh, Ferrari. Joe, do you wanna talk about that one briefly?

Joe Ford: Well, yeah. That, that’s this Ferrari race car here. Uh, ultimately was located and sold to Les Wexner for around 18 million.

Involved a, a sale, a illegitimate sale through a high-end auction house. After we [00:32:00] finally settled the case and one of the board of directors of the auction house resigned right after we settled ’cause he had been. Tricked into believing somebody else owned this Ferrari, when in fact, it was myself and my Ohio partner who owned it, and they sold it in London.

So it was international borders and you know, a lot of litigation, litigation in Ohio. That’s where the original theft was, Cincinnati, Ohio, and then exported to Belgium, hidden under a phony VIN number because it was so rare of a car. They just don’t make many of them. And then, uh, finally when the guy was on his deathbed.

He tries to settle up and square away the paperwork. He contacts the Ohio heirs and then he sues them to try to clear up title ’cause he’s on his deathbed and he knows his daughter can’t do anything with the car in, in its current status. So that litigation took another six years to resolve and ended up having.

Squirrely people come out of the [00:33:00] woodwork claiming ownership of the same car. ’cause the car was once raced in South America since there was somebody from South America who said he owned it. And of course the history and the, the track record and provenance proved otherwise. But you, you get all kind of, uh, crazy people come out of the woodwork when there’s high stakes on the table.

Stayton: And this, this was another, another case, Gary, of, of, again a kind of a, a, a wealthy, uh, retired. Actually nuclear scientist, this gentleman in Ohio who had owned the car for years, had worked on the Manhattan Project. He had, then become, uh, disillusioned, uh, with, what he had done there.

Also, similar to what happened to Tab Lago kind of became a recluse. Had these vast junkyards full of mostly just junk cars or, or like pieces of airplane, or he would just tinker. He is a brilliant kind of, a lot of these guys are kind of like almost mad scientist guys who would tinker with these things.

But it [00:34:00] became known that amidst all this pile of junk, there was this very rare old Ferrari again, after Ferrari himself dies. And these cars become more valuable. That’s when people found out about that car. Same deal. Uh, in the middle of the night, someone cut a fence took the car, loaded it on a trailer, uh, that went down to Georgia and eventually made its way, uh, to Europe, uh, via kind of back channels and, and fraudulent paperwork.

So it’s, you know, what’s compelling about this is. Frankly, the logistics, these cars, these cars are amazing pieces of history and art, which it was fun for me to really report on this. And it’s a, it’s a great read to, to learn the history of this car, this Ferrari, raced car that it raced in South America, had raced in all these places.

Absolutely beautiful car. And, you know, and, and then wound up in the hands of these kind of you know, unique eclectic collectors and then [00:35:00] stolen. But it’s not like, you know, you think about those guys who, who robbed the louv. I mean, they’re moving hot jewelry. That’s not easy. Can you imagine moving a hot, you know, giant car?

Like just the logistics and the operations of this. Are really fascinating. So the book really does go into detail not only in the personal stories surrounding this, obviously Joe and the alleged thief and, and kind of, uh, former associates turned enemies. Uh, but also in, in these cars and the actual mechanics of how you move stolen very rare, tens of millions of dollar cars across international borders.

Um, and it’s, it’s just, it’s just an amazing story.

Gary jenkins: It sounds, it really sounds like to me that’s what attracted to me when I got the, uh, email from your publicist. I thought that this is a, it is not mafia, but it is a really interesting story that I wanna know more about myself. Uh, guys, I really appreciate y’all coming on the show as Staton Bonner and Joe Ford, the Million Dollar Detective.

Uh, it’s just been fascinating, guys, and you guys, I’ll have links to that, uh, book, [00:36:00] uh, Amazon link to that book down in the show notes. So you listeners check those show notes. Yeah. Million

Stayton: dollar, million dollar car detective. Thank you Gary. Thanks so, so much for having, I left the car out.

Gary jenkins: Million dollar car detective.

Thanks Gary. Sounds good. Thank. Thank you.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins takes listeners deep into one of the most chilling and revealing moments in Chicago mob history—a secretive 1967 party for Mob stalwart, Fi Fi Buccieri. It was held at the legendary Edgewater Beach Hotel. What appeared to be a lavish celebration was, in reality, a tightly controlled gathering of roughly 300 mobsters, political figures, and underworld insiders. The occasion marked the 40th birthday of feared Chicago Outfit enforcer Fiore “Fifi” Buccieri, a man whose reputation for violence made him one of the most dangerous figures in the city.

Despite not being invited, veteran journalist Bob Wiedrich managed to infiltrate the event, raising serious questions about security, secrecy, and the gathering’s true purpose. This was no ordinary party. Federal surveillance later revealed that the Federal Bureau of Investigation had the room bugged, capturing disturbing conversations—including laughter and casual recollections of torture and murder by Buccieri and his associates.

Central to this episode is Buccieri’s alleged role in the brutal torture and murder of William “Action” Jackson, a crime that horrified even seasoned law-enforcement agents. These wiretap recordings provide rare insight into the mindset of mob enforcers and the normalization of extreme violence within the Chicago Outfit during the 1960s.

The timing of the party was critical. Chicago boss Sam Giancana had recently been released from prison, and rumors swirled that major power moves were underway. Evidence suggests this birthday celebration doubled as a covert mob summit, where leadership issues, alliances, and strategic decisions were quietly discussed away from public view. This party was a who’s who of the Chicago Outfit. Men like Mike Glitta, Teets Battalgia, Ceaser DiVarco, Ross Prio, Larry The Hood Bounaguidi, Irvin Weiner, Dominic DiBello, Wee Willie Messino, Joseph Cortino ( former chief of police in Forest Park and several others.

You will learn how Anthony Accardo and his driver Jackie Cerone avoided the scene when the cops started taking pictures and writing down names. I also explore the role of the Santa Fe Saddle and Gun Club, an organization tied to questionable fundraising activities that blurred the lines between organized crime, business interests, and local politics. These raffles and social events weren’t just about money—they were about influence, access, and control.

Throughout the episode, I break down the cast of characters who attended this gathering: loan sharks, enforcers, racketeers, and political fixers. Their interconnected stories reveal a dense web of loyalty, fear, and ambition that defined the Chicago mob scene at its peak.   This episode uses the Edgewater Beach Hotel as more than a setting—it becomes a symbol of mob glamour masking ruthless criminal reality. It’s a reminder of how deeply organized crime once penetrated American society, and why these stories continue to fascinate, disturb, and resonate today.

0:04 Chicago Mob Tales

1:39 Fifi Buccieri ‘s Infamy

3:19 Giancana’s Absence

4:22 The Santa Fe Saddle and Gun Club

5:36 Edgewater Beach Hotel

8:36 Police Intelligence Operation

12:22 The Notorious Players

16:02 Entertainment at the Banquet

18:54 Reflections on the Meeting

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Transcript

[0:00] Well, hey, all you wiretappers out there in gangland, wireland,

[0:03] especially you guys up in Chicago. Yeah, I’ve done several stories on Chicago. I’m on a Chicago trip right now, I guess. I’m going to do one more with our friend, Mr. Cooley, Bob Cooley. We just haven’t set up a time yet, but I’m going to do one more with him for sure. But I’m going to keep some of these Chicago stories up. I got such a great reaction. You know, you guys, you know, like and share these, as they say, on the apps and on YouTube. But anyhow, let’s go back to March of 1967.

[0:36] There was a real well-known reporter named Bob Wendrick at the time. He really covered the mob in Chicago. I mean, he might as well have been a member of the mob in Chicago. He was so close to so many people up there. And he had some really good sources and some inside tracks. And he went to a party, but he wasn’t invited to that party. You know, they never really were going to invite Bob Weindrich to a party. It was $25 a plate. There was about 300 outfit mobsters and their associates attended this party. Some of their political associates even. They called a chief of police and I think a mayor of a suburban city. It was at the Edgewater Hotel. It was sponsored by the Santa Fe Saddle and Gun Club. It was to honor the birthday of outfit enforcer, killer, and loan shark Fiore Fifi Bussieri. Fifi was a vicious killer, man. I mean, he was bad. Straight out of the Capone days.

[1:36] And he was kind of best known in more modern times. It happened not too long before this party, I believe, or around this time, maybe right after.

[1:48] He took part in the multi-day, I believe, three-day torture and murder of a bookie, a great big fat bookie named William Action Jackson. There’s some images, some pictures, a picture of him in his trunk was showing a lot of the torture that they did to him out there. I’ve seen it on the Internet. They kind of cut back on those pictures and try to keep those from getting circulated around on Facebook and some of the social media apps. I assume it’s still out there. Um, but anyhow, the Bureau had a, had a hidden microphone in a guy’s house, Jackie, the lackey Saron, who was, uh, uh, a Cardo’s driver at the time had a, had a hidden microphone in there and Jackie Saron and a couple others. And one of them was Fifi Sierra, Bussieri. I don’t remember who else it was. We’re laughing about Lacks and Jackson’s reactions to the cattle prod and some of the other gruesome details.

[2:45] They thought he was talking to the hated FBI agent Bill Romer at the time, but in fact, he was not. He wasn’t talking to anybody. I did find one blurb where he was thought to be a child molester. So, you know, I don’t know. And I’m thinking it was a child of one of his girlfriends or something like that. I’m not sure. But anyhow, they tortured the heck out of him for about three days. Fifi came out of the 42 gang. If you remember, it was Alibaba and the 40 Thieves, so that meant there was 41 in Alibaba’s gang, and they wanted to have one more

[3:17] than Alibaba, so they named themselves the 42 Gang. This party happened just as Sam Giancana was getting out of jail.

[3:25] He didn’t attend, and he left for Mexico about that time to avoid further grand jury appearances. He’d been in jail about a year, I think, because they give him the old give you immunity and you have to testify. If you don’t, then they find you in contempt of court and send you to penitentiary or a jail for a year or so for the length of grand jury. And so he left town right after that and went down to Mexico for several years. Some speculate this meeting was really to get everybody together in one place and have some private meetings off the side without law enforcement really knowing what was going on, where Ricardo and Paul the Waiter Rica would name Joey Doves Iupa as the new boss in place of Gen Cona and make some other personnel shifts. You know, a few years later, when Giancana comes back, there’ll be a whole string of murders around the time he’s murdered because of some of his people that were always loyal to Giancana.

[4:22] This Santa Fe Saddling Gun Club, anybody ever heard of that? I had not heard of this before. It was a registered club. The president was Joseph Scaramuza, who owned a gun store at Halstead & Taylor, which is, I believe that’s right down there in the middle of Mobland. There was an informant in the jfk files as i was researching scaramusa there was an informant that claimed that scaramusa knew jack ruby well and as they checked into scaramusa over that they found found that this halstead gun store that he owned had sold three pistols that were recovered after some puerto rican terrorists shot up the house of representative a few years before now you know what all that means i don’t know but uh and i remember that when i was a little kid these puerto Puerto Ricans, uh, now, uh, they tried to, they were trying to assassinate Harry Truman, who was staying out of the white house and the Blair house, uh, which is, I think maybe that’s where the vice president stays. Sometimes I’m not sure. Anyhow, he was not in the white house and they, they had a plan to assassinate him. They also went into the house of representatives and shot it up. They wanted complete freedom from the United States at the time. Now there’s not been any Puerto Rican freedom movement since that I know of. Anyhow, um.

[5:36] The Edgewater Beach was a faded but once grand dom of hotels along Lake Michigan. They had their own beach for a while. Then something moved in between them and the beach. And it was about to declare bankruptcy. It was located a few guys that live in Chicago. It was 5555 North Sheridan.

[5:56] And now members of the Chicago Police Intelligence Unit had found out about that themselves. It was like Weindrich had. Maybe they hip Weindrich to it. That all works, all that little undercover stuff. You have an employee at the Edgewater who knows somebody who knows somebody, and the work starts leaking out. When you have something this big, you have 300 people there, and it was really to make some money too, charged $25 a plate, and they did another little fundraiser. They’ve been selling raffle tickets all over Chicago and all, like down in northwestern Indiana. And in Indiana, anywhere that the outfit had some kind of influence and businesses that they could hold up. It’s like policemen. We used to go out and sell circus tickets. They were like $2 a ticket, but it wasn’t really for a ticket. It was like a support the police circus, which then gave a piece of the money to some police or widows and orphans fund. I don’t remember exactly. This is when I was brand new. and you were given like a handful of circus tickets and you’re supposed to go out to your local businessmen and sell them. Of course, they always bought them. All you had to do was go in and say, you know, I got some police tickets or circus tickets and they’d buy them. And they weren’t exactly even a ticket. They were a coupon and then they helped go buy a ticket. But, you know, that’s what they were doing, and that’s where they were.

[7:23] Intelligence unit was milling around the hotel. They were, you know, I think what they were trying to do was waiting to see if the operators of this banquet, as this thing got going, if somebody actually, you know, drew, made a drawing or really raffled off a new car, which is what supposedly the raffle tickets were for, which would give them an excuse then to raid this place, saying it was an illegal lottery and then start really identifying the participants you know all of them that were there make them air everybody give you id and all that and then they had they were really loaded for bear they had 65 cops waiting close by it’s something called the foster avenue beach so it was it was a hell of an operation now the outfit during this time learned that the cops were going to be there and someone called Tony Accardo and Paula Guadarica, who were, you know, supposed to be there. They were like the headliners. They were the big ducks at that show. And really, if it was about having some meetings to realign personnel and name, maybe they’re going to have a making ceremony, but I doubt that.

[8:30] But maybe they were going to name Joy Iupa as the new boss because he was the next boss. Somebody warned him not to come. And, of course, Jackie Lackey’s Roan didn’t show up either because he was a Cardo’s driver.

[8:47] Cops, I’m going to tell you about some of the people the cops did find there and identify. Ross Prio, his north side loan shark and enforcer who had been Gen Conn’s second command and was reportedly consulted on all outfit murders. Now, Ross Prio, he’d been around. I can’t remember. I think he was out of the 42 gang himself. He had been around since the Capone days and a well-respected guy, had a lot of guys under him. And he was a bad dude. He was a bad actor. He was dangerous as hell and could take part in torturing the whole nine yards. They saw Irving Weiner there. He was a mob-connected bail bondsman. He was a guy who ended up a few years later walking with Alan Dorfman when somebody came up behind Dorfman and shot and killed him. Dorfman was their big guy in the Teamsters. Dorfman had helped him get those loans out of the Teamsters pension fund and loaned to people that wanted to buy Las Vegas casinos. Then everybody would get a kickback from those casinos. So he was integral. He was being investigated as an official of the Twin Cities.

[9:54] Food products company and he had my he had partners felix milwaukee phil aldoricio and sam teach battaglia and marshall caifano i mean this guy is erb wiener he was he was a money man for the mob well known as a money man and and he was he was involved with with lombardo joe lombardo and tony splatter and some others and they got a loan for a guy named from the teamsters fund but for a guy named danny seifert they thought danny seifert had started a company with a lot of this money, and he was going to testify about how he got this Teamsters loan is my understanding. And I believe Lombardo and probably Frank Suisse showed up and killed him one day. He never spent a night in jail. Weiner never spent a night in jail. Go figure that. He’s kind of like, almost like Tony Accardo, huh? I saw a guy named Mike Glitta. He was an outfit member who had B-Girl bars, had these kind of hustling bars, and was involved, heavily involved in the porn business now. Um.

[10:54] There was a lot of porn shops in Chicago, and Gletta was really, he was the guy on the porn shops. Chicago Crime Commission published something that said he supervised all pornography operations in an area that went from the near north side clear to the Wisconsin state line. So everything from, say, Rush Street on north was his. I guess he wasn’t down in, I think, Old Town is where Redwood met and some porn shops down there. and Frank Suisse was extorting money from some of them. Mob watchers claimed that Glitter always reported directly to Vincent Solano, who was a labor union leader and a capo, and the guy that probably had Tokyo Joe, Joe Ido killed. He was a racket boss on the north side and all the way up to the north suburbs. Identified a guy called Larry the Hood, who I’d seen that name before. It’s a really hard name to pronounce. was a Bonaguiti.

[11:54] He was a mob wannabe at the time. As I researched into him, he was really just a wannabe. Hung around the Rush Street bars and he was associated with Mike Glitta. And he’ll eventually get an opportunity when Ross Prio dies and Mike Glitta has a heart attack and he moves on up real quick because he’s always in there around and he knows the porn business and the B-Girl bars on that near north side. And he’s the one that goes around and collects after after Glitter has a heart attack.

[12:23] Another Northside vice boss named Joe Caesar Joseph DeVarco, he was dropped off by an underling driver. He came out of the 42 gang himself and is a well-known gangster on the Rush Street area. Dominic DiBello was a Northside gambling operator. He was seen with a friend of his and a fellow gambling operator named Bill Gold, or called Bill Gold. He had a longer name than that, and I don’t know him. If you guys make comments down below, if you know who this Bill Gold was and what the story was with him, he probably just ran a sports book or something or helped with the off-track betting outlets. And they arrived just before a guy named Joseph Cortino, according to the newspaper report. He was a former Forest Park chief of police. He was suspected of protecting gambling operations and leaking law enforcement information to the mob. A guy you hear mentioned, I’ve not really seen much on in detail, Willie Massino, and they called him Wee Willie because he was little, but he was supposedly really, really a bad character.

[13:26] Here’s a guy when I believe it was Mario Raginone was invited to go on some kind of a crime, and he saw Willie Massino and somebody else in the area. And he said, uh-oh, if those guys are anywhere in the area where I am and they’ve got me kind of isolated like this, you know, going to do a crime so I’m not telling anybody where I’m going and what I’m doing and who I’m with, you know, they’re going to hit me. And he went in after that. That’s how feared Wee Willie Messino was. He had been a loan shark collector and enforcer for Tony Cardo and a guy named Joseph Gagliano, who I don’t know must have faded off into the woodwork by the 70s. 1970 he went to prison for kidnapping and beating a couple of contractors who owed money to the mob, George and Jack Chiagoris.

[14:19] Sounds like they’re maybe Greek, huh? After he got out of the penitentiary, he went to work as an advisor with Marco D’Amico, who was, you know, remember Marco D’Amico had a gambling operation, and that’s who Bob Cooley worked with a lot. And he also did some work for Jackie Cerrone.

[14:37] So Turk Torello, James Turk Torello, he was confronted by the cops as he was unloading sound equipment out of his, wherever his car. He yelled at him as they walked up. He said, hey, he said, I got machine guns in these boxes. You want to come and see? He was kind of a wise-ass, you know. He was a capo of the 26th Street crew and directly under Fifi Busseri. One time, he had been sent by an angry mob boss named Sam Giancana, who we all know, Mobo. And he was going to partner up with Jackie Cerrone to kill an outfit member named Frankie Esposito down in Florida. But the Bureau had recorded Giancana’s conversation and warned Esposito. and he came right back around. He didn’t help the Bureau. You know, you go out and you warn a guy and then you try to bring him in and make him a snitch or make him a cooperating witness in the end because they’re trying to kill him. They don’t all come in. And he ended up coming back to Chicago and settled his dispute with Giancana and that hit was canceled. According to the tape recordings, Torello and his killers were going to murder Esposito and cut him up in small pieces and feed him to the sharks off the Florida coast. You know, they had houses down in Florida. That’s where they, that was Jackie Cerrone’s Florida house where they overheard him and Fifi talking about the murdering and torturing Action Jackson.

[16:03] Now, I mentioned bringing in the sound equipment. They had entertainment. Vic Dimone was the entertainment that night. Now, Vic Dimone has long-held connections to the Chicago outfit and I believe the Genovese family. I didn’t really go way in deep into him. I’ve got a bunch of notes. I’ll probably do a story just about Vic Dimone.

[16:26] Maybe he was the character in The Singer and The Godfather, that kind of a blend of Frank Sinatra and Vic Dimone. As a singer in the Godfather movie. Guys named a couple brothers, Joseph and Donald Grieco, were there. Well, they had been in business with Vic Damone in the Vic Damone Frozen Pizza Company. Paul Rica and Fifi Boussieri had brought the famous singer Vic Damone into the outfits world and got him to lend his name to this frozen pizza business. And what they did, the Grieco brothers, They use it as a cover for their loan shark activities, but, you know, they sold pizzas, too, although I’ve never heard of. I don’t ever remember seeing a Vic DeMone frozen pizza. Vic DeMone had even taken his show to Giancana’s joint, the Armory. And if you’ve ever been by the Armory, it’s just like a neighborhood bar. A neighborhood joint is not a place. But Vic DeMone was big. You know, he would be playing Madison Square Garden maybe at the time or the big clubs, the Copacabana in New York. And they got him to bring his show out to.

[17:33] Gincana’s Joint the Armory kind of like at his Villa Venice he got Sinatra, Dean Martin and Sammy Davis to bring their show there and it was not exactly it was not the Copacabana they tried to make it into the Copacabana of Chicago but it never really got there another guy they saw was an outfit bookmaker and a tough guy out of Cicero who will get killed here in a little bit Sam Sambos Cesario Yeah.

[17:59] He was a longtime workhorse. He’s well-liked throughout the whole Chicago underworld, but he made a mistake. He ended up marrying a girlfriend slash mistress, the Gomar of Milwaukee Field Aldericio, while he was in the penitentiary. Two guys showed up with this woman. He marries her. They’re sitting out in front of their house. It was like a brownstone. It was a hot summer night. They’re sitting out in lawn chairs out in front of their house, and two guys pull up and run up and kill him. They say Harry Ailman was the guy that did that. They call that. I’ve had some kickback on this when I said this one time before a few years ago. I didn’t really investigate into it. But, you know, the popular story is that it’s a hit from beyond the grave because Aldericio had already died in prison

[18:50] between the time he gave that order and this actual murder. So that is a story of the big meeting at the Edgewater Beach Hotel in Chicago.

[19:02] It wasn’t exactly like Appalachian or some of the other famous mob meetings, and it was just Chicago only. They didn’t identify that they named anybody from out of town at this thing. Seemed like it was a big moneymaker, maybe a meeting that you could hire some other little meetings in, get people in there that you didn’t really want to be seen with in public. This article, they talked about other politicians and businessmen that were there, but they didn’t really name them. I guess they didn’t want to get sued or whatever, but it was a, it was definitely, it was a fundraiser. He charged 25 bucks a plate and then have that, uh, that lottery for that car. And, and, you know, they never gave that car to anybody. And you know how much money you can raise with, with, you got, you know, a hundred guys or so going out, mob guys going out and raising money, selling lottery tickets at five bucks, 10 bucks each. You can raise a lot of money like that. So maybe it’s just one more big Chicago scam and honored Fifi Boussieri at the time. I don’t know. But anyhow, thanks a lot, guys. I thought it was an interesting story, and I thought you would find it interesting. And some of the people that they named that were there, I wish I’d have been there, but writing down license numbers and taking pictures and all that stuff. So keep coming back. Like and subscribe, as they say. And we’re just going to keep doing this and doing this.

[20:24] I’ve gotten some you know I’ve got some things up that are like non-fiction books that are based on mob stuff, I don’t know if that’s okay or not, but I kind of like mixing that up. There’s only so many mob stories out there. You know, I don’t want a lot of these that have already been told. I don’t remember seeing any. I kind of looked around in the other podcast having this story. So I try to find them. You know, give me any tips, your comments that you can. I’ll try to look it up. And if I can find enough information, I’ll do the story on it. So thanks a lot. And adieu to you guys out in Chicago. I bet it’s colder up there than it is down here. Thanks, guys.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, host Gary Jenkins talks with author Linda Stasi about her historical novel, The Descendant, inspired by her own Italian-American family history. Stasi traces her ancestors’ journey from Sicily to the Colorado mining camps, revealing the brutal realities faced by immigrant laborers in the American West.

The conversation explores the violent labor struggles surrounding the Ludlow Massacre and the role of powerful figures like John D. Rockefeller, as well as the diverse immigrant communities that shaped Colorado’s mining towns. Stasi challenges stereotypes about Italians in America, highlighting their roles as workers, ranchers, and community builders—not just mobsters.

Jenkins and Stasi also discuss Prohibition-era bootlegging and the early roots of organized crime in places like Pueblo, weaving together documented history with deeply personal family stories of survival, violence, and resilience. Drawing on her background as a journalist, Stasi reflects on loss, perseverance, and the immigrant pursuit of the American dream, making The Descendants both a historical narrative and an emotional family legacy.

Click here to find the Descendant.

0:04 Introduction to Linda Stasi

3:12 The Role of Women in History

7:05 Bootlegging and the Mafia’s Rise

9:31 Discovering Family Connections

14:59 Immigrant Struggles and Success

19:02 Childhood Stories of Resilience

24:04 Serendipity in New York

26:19 Linda’s Journey as a Journalist

Hit me up on Venmo for a cup of coffee or a shot and a beer @ganglandwire

Click here to “buy me a cup of coffee”

Subscribe to the website for weekly notifications about updates and other Mob information.

To go to the store or make a donation or rent Ballot Theft: Burglary, Murder, Coverup, click here

To rent ‘Brothers against Brothers’ or ‘Gangland Wire,’ the documentaries click here. 

To purchase one of my books, click here.

 [0:00] Well, hey, all you wiretappers out there, glad to be back here in studio, Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, and I have an interview for you. This is going to be a historical fiction author. This is going to be a historical fiction book by a writer whose family lived the life of, whose family, This is going to be a real issue. This book is going to, we’re going to talk about a book. We’re going to talk with an author about the book. We’re going to talk with the author, Linda Stasi. We’re going to talk with the author, Linda Stasi, about her book, The Descendants. Now, she wrote a historical fiction, but it’s based on her actual family’s history.

[0:50] From Sicily to New York to California. The wild west of colorado now get that you never heard of many italians out west in colorado but she’s going to tell us a lot more about that and how they were actually ended up being part of the pueblo colorado mafia the corvino family and then got involved in bootlegging and and then later were involved in ranching and different things like that so it’s uh it’s a little different take on the mob in the United States that we usually get, but I like to do things that are a little bit different. So welcome, Linda Stasey. Historical fiction, how much of it is true? Is it from family stories? All the stories are true. I’ll ask you that here in a little bit. Okay, all the stories are true. All right. All the stories are true.

[1:41] It’s based on not only stories that were told to me by my mother and her sisters and my uncles and so forth, But it’s also based on a lot of actual events that took place while they were living in Colorado. And it’s based on the fact that, you know, people don’t know this. We watch all these movies and we think everybody who settled the West talk like John Wayne. There were 30 different languages spoken right in the minds of Colorado. So my uncles rode the range and they were, drovers and they were Italian. I mean, they were first generation. They were born in Italy and they made their way with all these other guys who were speaking Greek and Mexican and you name it. It wasn’t a lot of people talking like, hey, how are you doing, partner? How are you doing, bard? Talking like I do. Right.

[2:46] But it took a long time for you you can blame the movies for that and the dominant uh uh caucasian culture for that right and you know there was that what was the movie the the martin scorsese movie killers of the flower moon oh yeah all the uh native americans spoke like they were from like movie set in color and oklahoma so he was like what.

[3:13] Yeah, well, it’s the movies, I guess.

[3:25] Unlike any women that I would have thought would have been around at that time. They were rebellious, and they did what they wanted, and they had a terrible, mean father. And I also wanted to tell this story. That’s what I started out telling. But I ended up telling the story of the resilience of the immigrants who came to this country. For example, with the Italians and the Sicilians, there had been earthquakes and tsunamis and droughts. So Rockefeller sent these men that he called padrones to the poorest sections of Sicily, the most drought-affected section, looking for young bucks to come and work. And he promised them, he’d say, oh, the president of America wants to give you land, he wants to give you this. Well, they found themselves taken in the most horrific of conditions and brought to Ellis Island, where they were herded onto cattle cars and taken to the mines of Colorado, where they worked 20-hour days. They were paid in company script, so they couldn’t even buy anything. Their families followed them. They were told that their families were coming for free, and they were coming for free, but they weren’t. They had to pay for their passage, which could never be paid for because it was just company script.

[4:55] And then in 1914, the United Mine Workers came in, and there were all these immigrants, Greeks and mostly Italians, and they struck, and Rockefeller fired everyone who struck. So the United Mine Workers set up a tent city in Ludlow.

[5:14] And at night, Rockefeller would send his goons in who were—he actually paid the National Guard and a detective agency called Baldwin Feltz to come in. And they had a turret-mounted machine gun that they called the Death Squad Special, and they’d just start spraying. So the miners, the striking miners, built trenches under their tents for their women and children to hide. when the bullets started flying. And then at some point, Rockefeller said, you’re not being effective enough. They haven’t gone back to work. Do what you have to do. So these goons went in and they poured oil on top of the tents. And they set them on fire.

[6:00] And they burnt dozens of women and children to death. They went in. The government claimed it was 21 people, but there was a female reporter who counted 60-something. and they were cutting the heads and the hands off of people, the children and women, so they couldn’t be identified. It all ended very badly and none of Rockefeller’s people or Rockefeller got in trouble. They went before Congress and Rockefeller basically said they had no right to strike. And that was that. So here are all these men and women now living wild in the mountains of Colorado, not speaking the language, not. Being literate, not able to read and write.

[6:44] And living in shacks on mountains in the hurricane, I mean, in the blizzards and whatnot. And then it’s so odd. In 1916, Colorado declared prohibition, which was four years before the rest of the country.

[7:00] So these guys said, well, we need to make booze. We need to make wine. What do you mean you can’t have booze and wine? So that’s how bootlegging started in Colorado. And that’s how the mafia began in the West. with these guys.

[7:18] It’s kind of interesting. As I was looking down through your book, I did a story on the more modern mafia. This started during bootlegging times in Pueblo, and I noticed in your book, I refer to Pueblo, this was the Corvino brothers. So did you study that? Is that some of the background that you used to make, you know, use a story? You used real stories as well as, you know, the real stories from your family, real stories from history. Well, the Carlinos are my family. Oh, you’re related to the Carlinos. Well, what happened was I didn’t know that. And my cousin Karen came across this photo of the man who was her son.

[7:59] Grandfather that she never met because he was killed in the longest gunfight in Colorado history when she was 10 days old. And he was Charlie Carlino. So she came across it and we met, we ended up meeting the family. Sam Carlino is my cousin and he owns like this big barbecue joint in san jose california and uh we’ve become very friendly so i i said i look i’m looking at this and i think wait a minute vito carlino is the father he has three sons and one daughter the youngest son charlie who was the the handsome man about town cowboy, they had a rival family called the dannas in bootlegging and charlie carlino and his bodyguard were riding across the baxter street bridge driving in one direction and the dannas were coming in the other direction and the dannas got out and and killed them and it’s exactly what I’m thinking to myself, Vito Corleone, three sons, Charlie gets killed on the bridge while the two cars are… I thought, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I mean.

[9:26] It can’t be that coincidental, right? No. No, it can’t be. Even the bridge. Somebody was doing their research.

[9:46] And had baby Charlotte, who was only 10 days old at the time. So all these stories are true, and it started other gunfights and so forth and so on. But I thought, holy shit. That’s my family. I had no idea. I mean, I knew my aunt was married to a guy whose name was Charlie Carlino, And I should show you the picture because he looks like the missing link from the village people. He’s got big fur chaps on and a cowboy hat. I mean, he’s got his holsters on and he’s got his long gun over his shoulder. It’s like, wow. Yeah, so that story is true. And my mom was a little girl when the Pueblo flood happened. And she always recalled the story to me about watching in horror as the cows and the horses and people were floating away, dead.

[10:54] So now the name of your book is A Descendant, which is you, of course. And you kind of use the situations that you just described and the real life people in this book. So then how does this book progress and what other situation do you use? Well, I used many of the acts. I used the Ludlow massacre, the flood, the bootlegging, the prohibition. I also uncovered that the governor of Colorado said.

[11:30] Assigned all these guys to become prohibition agents, but they were all KKK. Yeah. So they actually had license to kill the immigrants, just saying they had a still. They had a still. And they were wholesale killing people. So there’s that story. There’s the story of the congressional hearing of Rockefeller after that. And um the the book ends up with my mother um beating my father um who was not in colorado she met him at my aunt’s wedding and avoided him and avoided him and they finally got together and it ends up the book ends up at the start of world war ii and my father was drafted into the air Force, or the Army Air Corps, as it was called that time, and his was assigned to a bomber. He was a co-pilot or a bombardier or something, I forgot. And my grandfather on my father’s side said, well, wait a minute, where are you going to do this? And he said, well, we’re going to Italy. And he said, you’re going to bomb this? Your own country? And my father said, no, no, Bob, this is my country.

[12:47] So the book comes full circle. Yeah, really. You know, I, uh, uh, sometimes I start my, I’ll do a program here for different groups or for the library once in a while. And I always like to start it with, you know, first of all, folks, remember, uh.

[13:03] Italians came here after, you know, really horrible conditions in southern Italy and Sicily and they came here and they’re just looking for a little slice of American pie the American that’s all they want is a some of the American dream and you know they were taking advantage of they had they were they were darker they had a different language so they didn’t fit it they couldn’t like the Irish and the Germans were already here they had all the good jobs they had the businesses and so now the Italians they’re they’re kind of uh sucking high and tit as we used to say on the farm they’re they’re uh you know picking up the scraps as they can and form businesses. And so it sounds like, you know, and they also went into the, I know they went in the lead mines down here in South Missouri, because there’s a whole immigrant population, Sicilians in a small town called Frontenac. And it also sounds like they went out to the mines in Denver, Colorado. So it’s based on that diaspora, if you will, of people from Southern Italy. And they’re strapping, trying to get their piece of the American pie. Right. And I think that I also wanted very much to change the same old, same old narrative that we’ve all come to believe, that, you know, Italians came here, they went to New York, they killed everybody, they were ignorant slobs. And my family had a ranch! They were ranchers! They had herds of cattle! It’s like, that’s just been dismissed as though none of this existed because.

[14:30] Yes, they were darker, because they had curly hair.

[14:34] There’s a passage in my book that’s taken actually from the New York Times, where they say that Southern Italians are.

[14:43] Greasy, kinky-haired criminals whose children should never be allowed in public schools with white children. Yeah. They used to print stuff like that. I’ve done some research in old newspapers, and not only about Italians, but a lot of other minorities, they print some

[14:57] horrible, horrible, horrible things. Well, every minority goes through this, I guess. Everyone. I think so. Part of it’s a language problem. You hear people say, well, why don’t they learn our language? Well, what I say is, you know, ever try to learn a foreign language? It’s hard. It is really, really hard. I’ve tried. It is really hard. I got fired by my Spanish teacher. Exactly. You know how hard it is. I said, no, wait, I’m paying you. You can’t fire me. She said, you can’t learn. You just can’t learn. My grandkids love to say she got fired by her Spanish teacher.

[15:36] But it’s such a barrier any kind of success you know not having the language is such a barrier to any kind of success into the you know american business community and that kind of a thing so it’s uh it’s tough for people and you got these people young guys who are bold and, they want they want to they end up having to feel like they have to take theirs they have to take it because ain’t nobody giving it up back in those days and so that sounds like your family they had to take however they took it they they had to take what they got how did that go down for them, start out with a small piece of land or and build up from there how did that go out well from what i understand um.

[16:21] They first had a small plot, and then that they didn’t own. They just took it. And then as the bootlegging business got bigger, they started buying cattle and sheep. And they just started buying more and more land. But my grandfather was wanted because he killed some federal agent in the Ludlow Massacre. So he was wanted. So it was all in my grandmother’s name anyway. So she became, in my mind and in my book, she becomes the real head of the family. And my grandfather had a drinking problem, and she made the business successful and so forth. And then I do remember a story that my mother told me that—.

[17:16] Al Capone came to the ranch at some point, and all the kids were like, who’s this man in the big car? There was other big cars. And then they moved to New York shortly after that, although they were allowed to keep the ranch with some of my aunts running it. I think there was a range war between the Dana family and the Carlinos and the Barberas, and they were told, get out of town, and they got out of town. And then they made a life in Brooklyn. And then my mom went back to Colorado and then came back to Brooklyn.

[17:54] You think about how these immigrants, how in the hell, even the ones who come here now, how in the hell do you survive? I don’t know. Don’t speak the language. You don’t have the money. How do you survive? I don’t know. I truly don’t know. I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t either. I couldn’t either. I don’t even want to go to another country where I don’t speak the language unless I can hire somebody to do stuff for me, you know, try to scuffle around and get a job, work off the books. You know, you got to work off the books, so to speak, and take the lowest, hardest jobs that they are, that there are. I don’t know. It’s crazy. I don’t really understand. Yeah. But, uh, so this, uh, it’s really interesting this, uh, the whole thing with the ranches and, and building up the ranches out there. I know we spoke, talk about Al Capone. Well, his brother, I think it was, it was not Ralph. There was another Capone brother. Which one? Well, another Capone brother who became, came a revenuer and I’ve seen some pictures of him and he looks like a cowboy with a hat and everything. He was in Nebraska or something.

[19:02] It’s so funny. And I just, when I was growing up and I would tell people that my mom rode her donkey and then her horse to school, and they’d always say to me, but aren’t you Italian?

[19:19] That’s Italian. Italian. Yeah, it’s interesting. Now, of course, your mom was, I noticed something in there about being in Los Animas in that area. Yes. Was there some family connection to that? And I say that because my wife’s grandfather lived there his whole life in Los Animas. Well, Los Animas County takes in Pueblo, I believe. Oh, okay. That’s the northern, that’s the far northern edge of Pueblo. The whole big area. I didn’t realize it was that close to Pueblo. I think my mom’s birth certificate actually says Los Animas County. Uh-huh. Something like that, yeah. Okay, all right. I didn’t realize Los Andemos was that close. I think. I might be wrong. Oh, it could be. It had those big counties out west, a great big county, so it would probably do.

[20:10] So let’s see. Tell us a couple other stories out of that book that you remember. Well, there’s a story of my mother and her sister, Clara. Clara was a year what do they call Irish twins you know Italian twins she was like 14 months younger than my mom and um, When my mom had to start school, she was very close to my Aunt Clara, and they refused to go to school without each other. So my grandmother lied and said they were twins. And the teacher said, I don’t think they’re twins. This one’s much littler than the other, and I’m going to send the sheriff to that guinea father of yours and make sure. Well, unfortunately, the town hall burnt down with all the records that night. So they were never able to prove that Aunt Clara was a year younger.

[21:14] Interesting. And also there’s a story of how they were in school when the flood hit. And my mother did have a pet wolf who was probably part wolf, part dog, but it was her pet named Blue. They got caught in the flood because they were bad and they had detention after school. And um had they left earlier they would have um so the dog came and dragged them was screaming and barking and making them leave and the teacher got scared because of the wolf and so they left and the wolf was taking them to higher and higher ground and had they stayed in that schoolhouse they would have been killed the teacher was killed everybody was washed away Wow. Yeah, those animals, they got more of a sense of what’s going on in nature than people do, that’s for sure. But she had always told me about her dog wolf named Blue. When they went back to New York City, did they fall in with any mob people back there? They go back to Red Hook. They had connections that were told, they were told, you know, you can, like Meyer Lansky and a couple of other people who would help them, um.

[22:33] But my mom—so here’s an absolutely true story, and I think I have it as an epilogue in the book. So a few years ago, several years ago, my daughter had gotten a job in the summer during college as a slave on a movie set that was being filmed in Brooklyn. And she got the job because she, A, had a car, and B, she could speak Italian. And the actress was Italian. So every night she’d work till like 12 o’clock and I’d be panicked that she’d been kidnapped or something. So she’d drive her car home. But then every night she was coming home later and later and I said, what’s going on? She said, you know, I found this little restaurant and right now we’re in Red Hook where the, and it wasn’t called Red Hook. It was called, they have another fancy name for it now.

[23:32] And she said and I just got to know the owner and he’s really nice and I told him that when I graduated from college if I had enough money could I rent one of the apartments upstairs and he said yes and she said we’ve got to take grandma there we’ve got to take grandma there she’ll love the place she’ll love the place and so my mother got sick and just came home from college, and she was laying in the bed with my mother, and she said, Grandma, you’re going to get better, and then we’re going to take you to this restaurant,

[24:03] and I promise you, you’re going to love it. So my mother, thank God, did get better, and we took her to the restaurant.

[24:12] The man comes over, and it’s a little tiny Italian restaurant, and the man comes over, and he says, Jessica, my favorite, let me make you my favorite Pennelli’s. And my mother said, do you make Pennelli’s? And he said, yes. She said, oh, when we first came to New York, the man who owned the restaurant made us Pennelli’s every day and would give it to us before we went to school. And he said, really, what was his name? And she said, Don, whatever. And he said, well, that’s my grandfather. She said, well, what do you mean? He said, well, this is, she said, where are we? And he said.

[24:53] They called it Carroll Gardens. And he said, well, it’s Carroll Gardens. She said, well, I grew up in Red Hook. He said, well, it is Red Hook. She said, well, what’s the address here? And he said, 151 Carroll Street. And she said, my mother died in this building.

[25:09] My daughter would have rented the apartment where her great-grandmother died. What’s the chances of that of the 50 million apartments in New York City? No, I don’t know. And the restaurant only seats like 30 people. So… My mother went and took a picture off the wall, and she said, this is my mother’s apartment. And there were like 30 people in the restaurants, a real rough and tumble place, and truck drivers and everything. And everybody started crying. The whole place is now crying. All these big long men are crying. Isn’t that some story? Full circle, man. That’s something. Yeah, that is. Especially in the city. It’s even more amazing in a city like New York City. I know. That huge. That frigging huge. That exact apartment. Oh, that is great. So that restaurant plays a big part in the book as well, in the family. Okay. All right. All right. Guys, the book is The Descendant, Yellowstone Meets the Godfather, huh? This is Linda Stasi. Did I pronounce that right, Stasi? Stacey, actually. This is Linda Stasi. And Linda, I didn’t really ask you about yourself.

[26:17] Tell the guys a little bit about yourself before we stop here. Well, I am a journalist. I’ve been a columnist for New York Newsday, the New York Daily News, and the New York Post. I’ve written 10 books, three of which are novels.

[26:34] And I’ve won several awards for journalism. And I teach a class for the Newswomen’s Club of New York to journalists on how to write novels, because it’s the totally opposite thing. It’s like teaching a dancer to sing, you know? It’s totally opposite. One of my mentors was Nelson DeMille, my dear late friend Nelson DeMille, and I called him up one night after I wrote my first novel, and I said, I think I made a terrible mistake. He said, what? I said, I think I gave the wrong name of the city or something. He said, oh, for God’s sakes, it’s fiction. You can write whatever you want.

[27:17] But when you’re a journalist, if you make a mistake like that, you’re ruined. Yeah, exactly. So I have. We never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Go ahead. I’m sorry. I said I have a daughter and three grandsons. My daughter is the only female CEO of a games company. She was on the cover of Forbes. And my husband just died recently, and he was quite the character. He got a full-page obit in the New York Times. He’s such a typical, wonderful New York character. So I’m in this strange place right now where I’m mourning one thing and celebrating my book. On the other hand, it’s a very odd place to be. I can imagine. I can only imagine. Life goes on, as we say, back home. It just keeps going. All right. Linda Stacey, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Oh, thank you. I appreciate you talking to me. You’re so much an interesting guy. All right. Well, thank you.