Gangland Wire

In this episode, Gary Jenkins, retired intelligence detective, sits down with veteran true crime authors Frank Gerardot and Burl Barer to examine their book Where Murder Lies, a case that intersects Russian organized crime, Italian mob connections, and a troubling claim of wrongful conviction.

At the center of the story is Jimmy Kitlas, a young man who struggled with learning disabilities and instability after aging out of a rehabilitation facility in Los Angeles. Facing homelessness and limited options, he gravitated toward individuals connected to the Russian mob, seeking protection and belonging. Instead, he was drawn into criminal schemes—including check fraud and drug trafficking—engineered by experienced mob figures who exploited his vulnerabilities. Frank and Burl provide historical context on the rise of Russian organized crime in the United States, particularly in neighborhoods like Brighton Beach.

Unlike the rigid hierarchy of traditional Mafia families, these groups often operated through looser networks, engaging in lucrative scams such as gas tax fraud alongside Italian crime figures. The authors explain how these alliances blurred lines between ethnic crime groups and created new power structures within the American underworld.

The discussion then shifts to the murder that reshaped Jimmy’s life. What began as manipulation and grooming evolved into betrayal, jealousy, and ultimately violence. The authors detail how Jimmy’s arrest followed a carefully orchestrated narrative that shifted blame onto him while shielding more powerful figures. Through examination of court records and transcripts, Gerardot and Barer argue that investigative failures and prosecutorial decisions compounded the injustice.

0:02 Introduction and Guests

0:47 Wrongful Conviction Discussion

4:26 Kelly Lee’s Influence

6:33 Russian Mob Background

12:28 Jimmy Kitlas’ Journey

18:47 Investigative Challenges

22:58 The Murder Plot

26:45 Russian Mob Operations

28:29 Geographic Control in LA

31:29 Trust and Collaboration

35:03 Daniel Patterson’s Role

37:10 Conclusion and Book Promotions

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[0:00] Hey, all you wiretappers, good to be back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective, and I have two guests today. Frank Girdo. Is that correct, Frank? Girdo? That’s pretty good. Gerardot. I’ll take it. Gerardot. Gerardot. Just don’t pronounce a T at the end, right? Yes, sir.

[0:24] And Burl Barer. Is it Barer, Burl? Yep, that’s close enough for government work. Joe’s enough for government work. That’s the story of my life, as everybody knows. I like to get it close. And we never let the real facts get in the way of a good story either. So let’s just get going here. We like to tell stories on this channel. That’s what my guys like is stories.

[0:44] Stories about the Russian mob and maybe a little bit about the Italian mob. And we also got a story about a wrongful conviction, which is a kind of a hot topic right now. We’re seeing a lot of different things in these true crime shows about wrongful convictions. And there’s been, I think a lot of them have been uncovered. In the last few years because people started paying attention to that a little more than they used to. When I was a policeman, they didn’t pay any attention. Never heard of a wrongful conviction. I really congratulate you investigators and authors and true crime diggers out there that see these things and then go take a look at them because they need to be taken and given a look at. So Burl Baer is an Edgar winning author and two-time Anthony Ward nominee. He’s got a lot of experience in reporting. I see you’ve been in the Hollywood Reporter, even the London Sunday Telegraph, New York Times, USA Today.

[1:38] You’ve got, I believe you’ve got some other, what else do you do, Burrell? I watch a lot of TV, watch a lot of movies. What kind of shows have you been on? You’ve done other investigations here. Yeah. I did almost, Frank and I have done most of those shows. Deadly Women, Deadly Sins, Behind Mansion Walls, you know, all.

[1:57] Do you name them and claim them? We’ve probably been on them. All right. And Frank Gerardot, you’re a journalist, radio host. You’ve authored several true crime nonfiction books, co-author with Burl on A Taste for Murder, Betrayal in Blue. And you did one with somebody else named Byrne. Oh, that was about John Orr. And I read that book. Actually, I read that book, that John Orr. That was a hell of a story, man. That was a hell of a story. Several years ago. So that’s a, it’s a crazy thing. And that, that, that book really tells the story of John Orr through his daughter’s perspective. Ah, okay. And, and I don’t remember which one I read. I read one. I listened to a podcast about the whole thing all the way through guys. That was the LA County was an LA County fireman, fire investigator who was sat in his own fire all up and down in California. Oh yeah. He would go up North. He was in Southern California. He would go up north to a fire conference and he’d set fires on the way back. It was crazy, craziest story I ever read. And after he got arrested, the number of arson fires in California declined by 70%. I’ll be darned. I’ll be darned. He set brush fires, just all kinds of fires. It was crazy. Name of that book is Burn, Guys, if you’re interested in that by Frank Cardo. That’s the French pronunciation. Yes, sir. Yes.

[3:18] So these two guys, they have their publicist, God Hold Me, and they introduced me to this book, Where Murder Lies. It is a fascinating look, and they did a real great examination of the Russian mob, a little connection to the Italian mob in New York City as part of this investigation into really a wrongful conviction case, a wrongful conviction of a kid who was, I guess we don’t use the word retarded anymore. He was mentally disabled and retarded in some manner. I’m not sure exactly how to describe that anymore. How would you guys describe him? So, yeah, I think he’s differently abled. We’ll say that. He’s actually a pretty smart guy. He speaks a lot of languages. He read this book in a night.

[4:01] He just, I think more of his problem is that he’s maybe learning. He had learning difficulties. And as you’ll see when we get into the book here, he had a lot of physical and emotional trauma growing up. Okay. Jimmy Kittlis was his name. Yes. And a woman named… Kelly Lee.

[4:22] A woman named Kelly Lee got you guys interested in this story. It’s a wrongful conviction story that strays into this mob ties. Who was she? Now, who was Kelly Lee?

[4:32] I could tell you about Kelly Lee. She was one of the first people I met when I came to Los Angeles in November of 2003. Three, she was doing intake at Teshuvah, which is a Jewish community kind of rehab for people with all-matter recovery issues. I’d just been through a bad patch, et cetera. He needed some help. She did my intake. Wound up becoming friends with her and her husband. And a few years later, we’re having dinner together. She says, oh, Pearl, you’re a true crime writer. I go, duh, yeah. And she pulls out a handful of court transcripts that are difficult to get nowadays. Thank you. Says, take a look at this. She was, at the time this murder took place, what I would term an unlicensed pharmaceutical supplier on the streets of West Hollywood. Correctly. Gotcha. Marijuana, primarily. Yeah. And she had six arrests for selling pot, which now would probably get her a community service award here. Yeah. Times were different. And when Jimmy Kittlis ages out of the facilities or whatever down in Lake Elsinore. When he turns 18, they just put him on a bus with a ticket to West Hollywood. Goodbye.

[5:49] And he gets off. He meets her. She’s a very compassionate person. She can see that this kid is really childlike. Babe in the woods or babe on the street, he’s really going to get taken advantage of. She takes him under her wing like a surrogate mom and tries to tell him and teach him how to survive on the street. And then she said, he’s like a child. Could be really eager to please, super polite, has the intentions man of a goldfish. Oh, look, there’s a castle. Oh, look, there’s a castle. It’d be very easily used.

[6:28] It had a lot of sexual energy. He needed a girlfriend. He got one and got her pregnant. And she really tried to help these kids, But she couldn’t be with him 24-7 And she certainly raised her eyebrows When she saw who was spending a lot of time With this couple And that was a well-known fellow In the Russian mob, Yeah, I read that So let’s talk a little bit about the Russian mob So you guys really went in the background When they first came to Brighton Beach Tell the guys a little bit about that background.

[7:02] Yeah, sure. As the Soviet Union began to crumble, a lot of Russian Jews found their way to New York, and they found their way to Brighton Beach. And they set up a sort of black market trading system among themselves and within the community with all the sort of standard features of mafia, right? Protection, extortion, sometimes murder, certainly dealing in black market stuff like drugs.

[7:32] Clubs, prostitution, just about every kind of crime you can think of happening in a neighborhood that’s protected by a mafia. These guys were controlling in this neighborhood of Brooklyn called Brighton Beach. What I thought was interesting, and readers will probably find interesting too, is that there’s not a real setup like a commission or families. The Russian mob really operates more like Ronin. There’s guys that just independent operators and build up their business based on their relationships and how many people they can pull into a scheme. What we also found is that these guys were pretty adaptable and they picked up on a scam that the Lucchesis and the Gambinos were operating. And that was to get gas, steal it, take it from places where it wasn’t really tracked and put it into gas stations, sell it for maybe a penny less than the guy across the street, but capture the tax, the federal excise tax money and pocket it. And this was a multi-million dollar scheme And to the fine-tuning of it The Russian mob, Worked with guys like Michael Francesi To really extract as much as they could from it One of the guys in our book.

[9:00] Meyer Ida, who was in Brighton Beach and operating there, came to Los Angeles in the mid-90s and started up the gas tax scheme. But the feds were pretty wise to it at that point, and he got caught up in the sting. Interesting. If I remember right, some of them were, they couldn’t steal it, but they would set up companies, shell companies, and then buy gas and then sell it a little bit cheaper. And it was up to them to collect the tax and then pay the state. And they do this for a certain period of time. And then they just declare file bankruptcy or just walk away from that shell company and create another little LLC and do the same thing. So just like run after you just couldn’t catch up. You bust out of one and move on to the next one. And that’s what they and you could they change the laws for gasoline purchase changed as a result because you could just go buy it. You can make up a company today, buy it tomorrow, sell it on Thursday, collect the tax on Friday, and bail out on Saturday and start all over again next week. Wow. Wow. There’s a scam. There’s a mob that’s willing to take advantage of a loophole like that. It’s crazy. So they moved out to LA. What other kind of scams? Go ahead. Go ahead, Brett. I was going to say that the Russians were so good at this type of scam, far ahead mentally of the American Mafia.

[10:29] They were the best people they ever worked with. They were geniuses. They knew how to do this unlike any other. And in fact, the gas tax scam, the biggest moneymaker for the Russian mob and eventually the American mafia than any other form of income, billions of dollars. Interesting also is that if the former Soviet Union, should probably know, they factor in the Russian mob in their economy. I believe the last figure was 63% of the GNP of Russia was crime. They actually give a figure for it. Here we go. In America, this percentage of our federal income is from crime, but in Russia, they do. 63%. I don’t know what it is in America, But we talked to this Stan, who’s never going to pronounce his last name. And he had been in the Russian mob ever since he was a kid, raised in it.

[11:32] And so that’s just what we were brought up with. We didn’t think there was anything unusual. If you were a girl, you were going to be a sex worker. They were respectable. If you were a guy, you were going to do this. And it was never as bad or as evil as the Americans said it was. It was always, the Russians are coming, the Russians are coming. coming. It’s so scary. I noticed you had a chapter titled Glassnose Gangsters.

[12:00] I thought that was a pretty tricky title. I also read once that in Russia, they were so used to dealing with corrupt officials and running different scams that were in and around governmental agencies, like the tax collecting thing. They were so used to that, that they really refined this to a fine point than Americans could, because we’re not so used to dealing with corrupt officials. We have some, but not like Russia. Russia was an art in Russia.

[12:28] Yeah, and they just took the template and brought it right over here and started earning pretty quickly. So now, how does Jimmy Kittlis, he’s a street kid. He’s one of these, what I call throwaway kids. We have this group of kids on the streets that are 18, 19, 20, use drugs. And lots of times these older men who are gay want to pay him for sex or bring him in and take care of him. Was he one of those kids? Did he get into that kind of a lifestyle?

[13:02] He’s a homeless kid. He’s a runaway. And the place that he goes to, Hollywood and West Hollywood, is full of people that want to exploit young boys. Yeah. The lifestyle that he got into, though, was I think he recognized that there would be, people there who were stronger than him and smarter than him and want to take advantage of him. And so he sought out ways to hook up with mobsters because he figured that if he was connected, that would protect him from some of the bad stuff that might happen, especially like sexual exploitation.

[13:41] When he goes into a homeless shelter, he peripherally knows about Mark. He asks around about Mark, who’s a Russian mobster. And the homeless shelter introduces them and says, oh, hey, yeah, Jimmy here would like to do some work with you. And so he falls into doing work with Mark and let the scamming begin, as they say. Interesting. Yeah. I read the book how he was, he had such a facility to learn language that he learned Russian pretty quick. And he had other languages. Just one of those people that just could start picking that up. Me work like hell, and I can’t have one conversation, but somebody like that, they just pick it up. I understand he picked up Russian pretty quick, too. Very quickly, and to this day, speaks it pretty well. And that got him some cachet.

[14:30] But that only goes so far because, Gary, these guys that come in at a low level and aren’t Russian are really just mules. And that’s really what Jimmy was. He was a mule. Mark’s specialty was Czech forgery. and check washing. And he taught Jimmy how to take envelopes and get checks out of them, change who the check was written to or the amount that the check was drawn for, and go to various banks and cash those checks. And Mark was a pro at it. He had equipment to do it. He knew how the scam worked. He knew that you don’t go to the same bank three days in a row. You go to a couple of different banks and that’s how they got by day to day.

[15:18] Interesting. Yeah, I worked one of those little scams once, a little group of people that were doing that. They could have a process that can wash some of the ink off of a check and then put and change the amount and those kinds of things. They’d work, they’d go to grocery stores on paydays. People used to take their grocery, their checks to put grocery stores on paydays plus banks. So it’s a pretty good moneymaker that needs little guys like this to go out and cash the checks while the bad guy sits back and provides the checks and takes most of the money. So it’s interesting. Yeah. And that’s exactly what Jimmy was, the little guy that cashed the check.

[15:57] I want to interject something here. Now, Mark was, as Jimmy said, he looked like a Russian mobster. He was a Russian mobster. However, what Jimmy didn’t realize is that the whole family, or most of the family, was involved. Mark’s uncle, Meyer ITF, also known as Mike, was a very prominent figure in the Russian mob in Los Angeles. The fans were very aware of him. He was, shall we say, a big shot. He was the godfather of Plumber Park here. He was the guy. Jimmy didn’t know that. He just knew about Mark. As you know in the book, sooner or later it becomes a situation involving a fortune in gold and smuggled MDMA that puts Meyer in federal custody. Meyer wants out of federal custody. Mark not only is a Russian mobster doing bank fraud, he’s also an FBI informant and a DEA informant and an informant of the Pasadena Police Department.

[17:07] Frank says, according to the menu at a Chinese restaurant, going from column A to column B, how do I get my uncle out of prison? Solve a murder. Oh, what’s the easiest way to solve a murder? Plan it. Set it up. Blame it on someone, like maybe Jimmy. Final result, I’ll tell you, Meyer got out of prison. Jimmy went to prison.

[17:36] Wow, that’s a hell of a story. Frank can give me more insight on that process, but that’s the short form on how this all winds up fitting together. Yeah, and you guys, when you went back, you had to go back. Could you be able to pull she had transcripts from the court so you could find out who testified were able to get any more information police department’s notorious for not allowing reports to go out i can’t even get them out of my own but and i bet it was really bad on that how did how’d you go about that how’d you start digging into this and get your first clues that you can tell you about trying to talk to the items about this yeah yeah so it’s like an onion i i look at it like that and we had early on kelly shared with us some of the trial transcripts so that’s pretty good yeah there’s a lot of information in there and it and within the trial transcripts there’s names and and dates and so we started picking at it and early on you know we couldn’t get cooperation from any of

[18:40] the mobsters yeah we didn’t get cooperation from the fbi or the dea We were able to do some digging.

[18:48] And I think the digging led to a congressional hearing on the Russian mob back in the early 90s. And Meyer Itev’s name pops up in that hearing. So from there, I started digging through federal court files using PACER and came across all kinds of court documents involving Mike and then his nephew for various scams they were involved in.

[19:21] And then taking those court documents and continuing to research and talk to people and figure it out, we were able to lay it all out. It took us six years to do this, but lay out a narrative of who’s Mike, who’s Mark, who are they involved with, and what kind of things were they operating when Jimmy got involved. And where was everybody when this murder took place? And what we found out was that Mike was in federal custody and had been charged with involvement in a scheme to steal gold from a place in Massachusetts. And how the scheme worked is Mike and his buddy posed as government scientists who were building a nuclear reactor facility in a run-down apartment in Pasadena, California. And they were able to put in purchase orders for the gold and have it delivered to this apartment. And only when one of them misspelled sergeant on the P.O. And sent a fake check did the government catch on and arrest him.

[20:37] When they brought him in and charged him with this, the first thing that these guys wanted to do was figure out how they could get out of it. They hooked up with a guy in Hollywood who was involved in a scheme. Yeah. To dissuade a reporter from writing about the actor Steven Seagal. And this guy, his name is Alex Proctor, went to Meijer and another man in our book, Daniel Patterson, and said, listen, can you help me? I need to knock off this reporter.

[21:12] Daniel, as you’ll see from reading our book, is a pretty well-connected guy. He’s done some pretty interesting stuff, but murder was the limit of what he would do for anybody. He began to peel back some of the layers of that onion for authorities in that case. And that led to Meyer being in custody. And that was the catalyst for Mark and his other uncle, Gary, to try to figure out how can we get him out? And they believed that the government would let Meyer out of custody if they could inform on a big enough crime. Big enough crime probably wouldn’t be a burglary or a low-level assault or a battery. It had to be something significant. And then this murder happens. Wow. How did they choose this victim? I don’t know necessarily that they chose him, but this guy lived in the neighborhood where Mark and Jimmy hung out, and they essentially manipulated him into believing he was going to have sex with Jimmy’s girlfriend. And then manipulated Jimmy into thinking that, hey, this guy’s going to have sex with your girlfriend. Aren’t you upset by that? Doesn’t that piss you off? Don’t you think you should be a man and do something about it? Yeah.

[22:39] Hormones, jealousy, rage, greed. It’s like there’s everything like comes together in this one moment. And we end up with this guy, Alex, who’s a school teacher, just ends up dying.

[22:55] So they got motive and means and opportunity. They can manipulate Jimmy into providing all those for the investigated officers. Yep. Yeah. Wow. And, you know, and what, and what really the thing that really, I think, so there’s this event that happens and there’s a, there’s like part of this, there’s a locked door mystery that investigators encounter. But the other part of it is how after the crime, Jimmy was arrested.

[23:27] Manipulated into going to a hotel as a hideout that was arranged for him by Mark and Gary Iteve. And as soon as Jimmy’s in the hotel, they park themselves outside and guide the police to the hideout where they arrest Jimmy and his girlfriend. I think I read that initially, after the school teacher was dead, they got in, was it Pasadena? One of the police departments got an anonymous call giving up the body, where it was, the murder, and the suspect. Only one anonymous call. And then they, and then, oh, my God, this was heinous. Let’s mention that locked door. Let’s mention this locked door. This was heinous, heinous. When the police get to the scene of the crime, and they noticed that the apartment does not show any forced entry. Living room, everything, it’s fine. Get to the bedroom, however. The door had been locked from the inside. Jimmy said when he left, he locked the bedroom door from the inside. This is now after the fact. Someone shows up and tries to get in. They can’t because the door’s locked. They want to get in real fast. And they finally get in, practically ripped the doorknob off to get in.

[24:50] At the same time, let’s assume it might be the same person, Mark ITM uses the dead man’s telephone to call his lawyer to say, I want to report a murder that we could use to get my uncle out of prison.

[25:07] Using the dead guy’s phone. Then after they arrange that, he cuts the wires and leaves. Also wiping the door, the doorknob clean. His fingerprints are in there because he acknowledges he was in the bedroom earlier when Jimmy put the unconscious, still-breathing fellow on the bed.

[25:29] He leaves. Mark left, went out and told the girl. Jimmy killed the guy. But when he left, the guy was alive, breathing on the bed. He says, come down after in a minute. So then he tells the girl, we got to go because we’re going to get in trouble with the cops. What are we going to do? So it was a real mess. So to say, who killed this guy? Jimmy had to take full responsibility because he confessed to protect his girlfriend. Also, he felt bad about putting the guy to headlock and throw the old drunk guy to the ground anyway. But then again, how did Mark make a phone call to his lawyer and the dead man’s phone after all that happened? And after the doors ripped open in the apartment to the bedroom. Did he find the guy already dead? Or did he have to help finish the process? Legally, he was found not guilty. Mark was. Just like OJ was. Because did OJ do it? Did OJ not do it? Did he cover for his son? Whatever. But legally, he was not guilty. Same thing with Mark. Not guilty. Jimmy, guilty. Whether we killed him or not.

[26:45] We can’t say. We weren’t there. Crazy. Crazy, isn’t it?

[26:52] What other kinds of things was this crime family, this Russian mob family? It’s like a family. I’ve read about these. They’ll have that one strong man, and then you’ll have a group that kind of emanates out from that, but yet they’re not part of some larger group. They stand on their own. And so what else, what other kind of crimes were they involved in? Was this talking about MMDA being smuggled into those that’s a party? Rave kind of clubs yeah they one of the things that they did was make a counterfeit viagra one of the guys had a uh an idea to he bought some viagra and he had a plan to set up pharmacies where he could like order viagra through the pharmacy and like with the gas tax right don’t pay anybody have the viagra and sell it and then one of the other guys said that’s a waste of time I got a pill press. Just all we got to do is get the chemicals or some chemicals and put them together and press a bunch of Viagra pills and then we can sell thousands instead of tens.

[27:54] And then the gold scheme, which we mentioned, and the MA, the list goes on and on. And within the community of the Russian diaspora, extortion, loan sharking, gambling, prostitution, all those means of making money were on the table and being used. They were familiar with the casinos here in LA, familiar with the how to operate prostitution rings and advertise the services. Very sophisticated group of guys.

[28:29] Did they have a geographic area in which they were kind of like the ruling group?

[28:35] So that’s the funny thing about LA. And we talk about this a little bit in the book, that LA’s never really had like a mob family. There’s no five families here. If you go back to the 1940s and 50s, there was a guy named Mickey Cohen, who was a mobster here in LA and with help started the casinos in Vegas. But there’s no turf here In LA, if you’re going to set up an operation You’ve got to find a way to work with some of the other mobs In Los Angeles, the Mexican mafia is very prominent And their operation is run out of the jails That’s where their leadership is in the jail and prison system And the soldiers are on the street And that’s where the drugs and prostitution are distributed at street level, operated from the jails. Guys like Meyer or people operating within those turfs, they got to work with the Mexican mob to make sure that they’re not crossing lines. And we chronicle some of that, especially with the MDMA smuggling in the book.

[29:44] Interesting. Wow. Yeah. LA’s not really had that, like you said, that five families each has a geographic territory or even had one family, a guy named Jack Dragna, but it was really, it was open. LA was open city. We had a guy from Kansas City went out there in the 50s and fell in with some people out there. And, of course, from Tony Splatro and that Jimmy Fradiano, Jimmy Fradiano, these people from Chicago had some action going down in L.A., but no one mob family controlled L.A. And it’s spread out that you’ve got these neighborhoods over the place that I just wonder if they’re like a Brighton Beach kind of a place that where a lot of Russians had settled in. That was their neighborhood, at least where they did. They all live in one neighborhood. So, yeah, West Hollywood has a Russian enclave. And then there’s a park there called Plummer Park. That’s a gathering place for Russians in the neighborhood to get together and play chess and talk about what’s going on. I live in a neighborhood that has its own little enclave of Armenian mobsters. And their hangout is a donut shop. Yes, I’ve seen that here I have I was at a Starbucks up by the airport And I see these guys all ganged up together And they look like.

[31:03] They’re Italians. They look like down at the social club down in the North End. I was retired by then. So I look at these guys. I call a friend of mine back down the intelligence unit. I say, I see these guys and here’s one of their license plates and it’s some kind of a limo service. And so, yeah, that’s our Albanian gangsters. They all hang out there at that Starbucks and then they go to the airport. They have these different things. They haul drug dealers back and forth. We are on to them.

[31:29] That’s great interesting people ask Frank and I how is it that you get guys from the Russian mall or the fact with Betrayal in Blue who was a drug cartel guy or guys from the American mafia how do you get them to cooperate with you when you write these books I would like to stand whose name I can never pronounce with a whole section about the Russian mob, where he talks openly about it. And he says, because they trust us and anybody else, they want their story told truthfully. This is their legacy. They don’t want a bunch of BS about them in a book. If it’s been over seven years, they could talk about it. Unless it’s bank robbery, then it’s 10 years. We always tell them, don’t talk about anything you can be arrested for. Although, we’ll appreciate this because you’re doing this podcast. I was doing one, had this guest on, and all of a sudden he’s just talking about killing somebody.

[32:35] I said, you can tell I’m kind of getting upset. Turns to his lawyers, he goes, what’s the statute of limitations on murder? Murder. Oh, my God. There isn’t one. Shut up. I have told guys that. I said, I’ll tell you something, dude. Do not tell me something I can’t live with. You can talk to me, but do not tell me something I can’t live with. You cannot trust me if you tell me something I can’t live with. And that’s the main one right there. Fortunately, they trust, People learned that they could trust Frank and I to be honest with them, direct with them, protect them if they need protection. I don’t know about the protection part. I’m not going to protect any. I’m with Jerry. Don’t tell me anything. Well, that’s what I mean. You tell them, don’t cross this line. That’s protection. Please tell them where the guardrails are. Yeah. It’s an interesting thing that we do. I’ve got some guys here and some guys around the country I’ve dealt with. And they reach out to you and they want to tell their story. I wish I could get more of them to want to tell their story. And they want to tell one thing I get criticized for. And it’ll be somebody that’s on YouTube, obviously in the know, and they’ll tell me how I got something wrong.

[33:47] You deal with what you got. You deal with the newspaper articles and old court cases and things like that and try to get it right. But you can’t totally get it right. Of course, you don’t get it right as the way somebody else sees it, too. Everybody has a different take on the right story. I found out long ago, if you only rely on law enforcement, you’re not going to get the whole story. No, you got to go. Well, then you’re doing stenography. That’s what I always said. Yeah. Yeah. But it’s hard to get those people to open up, too. Man, it’s. Yeah. I was a reporter for a long time, so I’ve had some practice at it. And I’ve interviewed guys in prison. I’ve interviewed people who pre-arrest, during arrest, post-arrest.

[34:26] And I’ve developed a way to talk to people that makes them comfortable. With Adam Diaz that Burrell mentioned in our book, Betrayal in Blue, this guy is a South American cartel member dealing cocaine in the United States. He went on the record and talked about his life doing that.

[34:47] And the same thing in this book with Daniel Patterson. Daniel is quite a colorful character. And I interviewed him over five or six weekends about everything that he was involved in, up to and including the stuff that he did with the ITEVs.

[35:04] Now, Daniel Patterson, explain who he was to the Russians. Sure. He’s basically a conduit for the Russians. He’s a guy who knew how to make money more legitimately than they did. He had the pill press. he explained the gold scam how to operate the gold scam how to write po’s how to like add a veneer of legitimacy to their business and and make more money by doing that yeah it’s like the scam emails you get you see the misspelled words they greet you in some archaic way this is a scam this guy could take all that out of it and right i always love it without warning people i want to worm. If the woman on the dating site says, I am so-and-so by name, they’re Nigerian. But if you tell them that, then all the Nigerians will stop telling them, I’ll stop using that. But if it says, I am Sally by name, they’re Nigerian. Even if they say they live in your hometown, they’re Nigerian. Good clue. Good clue. You guys hear that out there?

[36:12] Yeah listen closely when you trip to one of these emails or one of these online things and you start talking to them they say my name is sally my name is nigerian hang up, how’s everything in nigerian click yeah.

[36:31] Guys, I didn’t expect to get that kind of a great clue for my guys out there, but that’s a good one. I didn’t really realize that one myself. Yeah, I am Sally by name. Here’s your clue. Watch out. I was talking to a guy once, a friend of mine. He was talking about some girl that he met online, of course, through Facebook. And he said, she told me she just thought I looked interesting and sounded interesting from my Facebook. And I said, what’d she do? He said, I think she’s legitimate. I said, what’d she do? She’s an entrepreneur. I said, dude, dude. On. Dude. Model and entrepreneur. Yeah.

[37:10] Okay. This has been great. Frank Girardeau and Burl Baer. B-A-R-E-R. Yes. And guys, I’ll have links to these books, all of their books. This book is A Taste for Murder, and they have Actually, this book is Where Murder Lies. Oh, I’m sorry. Okay. Oh, yeah. All right. Let me start. I’ll edit this. Their book is Where Murder Lies. And they also have one called A Taste for Murder, Betrayal in Blue, and Burned. So those are all three great true crime books. And I will have links to them in the show notes, guys. Thanks so much. Merle and Frank, I really appreciate you coming on. It’s really interesting. And Owen, if you buy the book, review the book. Say something nice about it. If you don’t like it, keep your mouth shut. Don’t give me one of those one-star reviews or I’m coming for you. You can’t trust those.

[38:08] Thank you, Gary. All right. Thank you. All right. I’ll send, I don’t know, do I have your emails or do I have the publicist’s email? I got somebody’s email. Sometimes I never get your guys’ email. You got Vine, you got Frank, you got them both. All right. I’ll send you a link whenever I get this. It’ll probably be a month or more before I actually get this up. I would stay way ahead. Okay, good. Okay. All right. Talk to you soon. Same thing I can ever do for you here in Kansas City while you get on these stories or something. Hey, I’m in Missouri. I haven’t used to Missouri. I’m in Houston, Missouri. You what? I’m in Houston, Missouri. Oh, are you? Yeah, Texas County, Missouri. Oh, Texas County. Yeah, that’s way down south. That’s down south. I’m in the Ozarks. Yeah. Okay. That’s why I grew the goatee. Okay. All right. All right. Thanks, guys. Bye-bye. Bye.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective Gary Jenkins sits down with author Aaron Mead to discuss his gripping novel Body in the Barrel, a story inspired by a real-life discovery in Lake Mead that shocked the nation.

In 2022, as water levels at Lake Mead dropped to historic lows, authorities discovered a body in a barrel with a gunshot wound to the head—a killing style that many investigators immediately linked to organized crime. The discovery triggered speculation that the remains could date back to the 1970s or 1980s, the heyday of mob activity in Las Vegas.

Aaron Mead explains how this discovery sparked the idea for his novel. Although Mead is a longtime water engineer for the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, the mystery of the barrel victim and the history of mob activity in Las Vegas inspired him to craft a fictional story grounded in real events.

Gary and Aaron dive deep into the Chicago Outfit’s influence in Las Vegas, discussing figures like Tony Spilotro and hitman Frank Cullotta, whose violent methods and stories helped shape the mythology of organized crime in the desert.

They also explore the long-standing mob practice of disposing of bodies in barrels, including the infamous case of mobster Johnny Roselli, whose body was also discovered stuffed in a drum. The conversation examines several possible identities of the Lake Mead victim, including casino insiders and Outfit associates who disappeared during the era of casino skimming.

Mead’s novel follows a fictional mob associate named Lenny Battaglia, who becomes terrified when news breaks about the barrel discovery. The reason? He knows there’s another barrel—with his victim—still resting somewhere in Lake Mead.

The discussion moves beyond mob history into the psychological consequences of violence, comparing Mead’s story to classic works like Crime and Punishment. Rather than focusing on a traditional “whodunit,” the novel explores what happens after the crime, examining guilt, fear, and the moral weight carried by those who commit violence.

Gary and Aaron also discuss the broader context of violence in American culture, including parallels between organized crime murders and modern tragedies such as the 2017 Las Vegas mass shooting.

Finally, the conversation shifts to Mead’s professional expertise in Western water law and the Colorado River, explaining how drought and declining water levels at Lake Mead are literally revealing pieces of hidden history—sometimes including crimes buried for decades.

This episode blends mob history, real crime mysteries, and fiction inspired by true events, offering listeners a fascinating look at how the past can resurface in unexpected ways. Click here to find Body in a Barrel

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[0:02]Introduction to Gangland Wire

[0:00]Hey, all you wiretappers, good to be back here in studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins. You know, I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective. Now I have a podcast and I interview real crime mobsters, policemen, FBI agents, do authors that are doing true crime books. And I do authors that are doing novels that are based on true crime. Because we stick with true crime as close as we can here, guys. You know that. And today I have one of those authors that has written a book that is a novel, but it’s based on a lot of real events in Las Vegas. And we all know a little bit about Las Vegas and the Mafia. So Aaron Mead, welcome, Aaron. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. It’s great to have you on the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit about your history.

[0:47]Sure. Yeah, I’m actually I’ve been working as an engineer, a water engineer for 30 some odd years. And so I come by my writing habit as a sort of a side interest. I, I, yeah, I just, I got a very, I’ve got a varied educational background too. So I started out as a, as an engineer in my training and then just had a creative itch and went back to school, ended up doing a PhD in philosophy of all things. And while I was doing that, I, I thought I might be an academic. I thought I might be a professor at one time and through the job search, things didn’t really work out. I did find a job, but it just wasn’t going to pay well enough, consider moving my family across the country for it. So I ended up not going into academia, but I stuck with writing, which was my favorite part of the PhD, the dissertation.

[1:31]And I just started writing different things, some nonfiction stuff related to my dissertation research, but then just got an idea for a story, wrote a novel. It’s still sitting in the drawer. I’m interested in publishing that someday. But this idea for the book related to kind of Las Vegas mob stuff actually came connected with my work as a water engineer. So I work for Metropolitan Water District of Southern California. We import water to Southern California from the Colorado River. And so I track the Colorado River news pretty closely. And in 2022, the lake was dropping because of drought and overuse. And this body in a barrel showed up on the shore of Lake Mead. And there was a gunshot wound to the head. And this looked an awful lot like a mob hit to the authorities. And so this just piqued my interest and got me thinking about how did this barrel get there and this body and what’s the story behind it. And I started doing a little research and it turns out that the clothing on the body was pretty well preserved.

[2:29]So the police dated it to the late 70s, early 80s potentially. And that’s of course the heyday of the mob activities in Las Vegas. It got me onto the Chicago outfit and, Some of the characters involved in the outfits activity in Vegas there. And so my story just went from there. But, yeah, I guess that’s a little about me and the story. So, yeah. Yeah. Those are the days when Tony Spolatro was really active out there. Chicago outfit man on the scene, if you will. And Body in a Barrel, another interesting Chicago link is they found a guy named Johnny Roselli, who was a highly placed mob guy who was connected to Las Vegas and Los Angeles. He had been their guy before Spalatro. He had been their representative out in the West, and they found his body in a barrel down in Florida. Wow, okay. There’s some reference there.

[3:21]I’d read a little that this is a pretty popular method of body disposal in various times. And Tony Spalatro was, I understand that they haven’t actually identified the victim yet, but the kind of style of killing they think is pretty connected with something Tony Spalatro might do. I guess the sort of low caliber gunshot wound was a popular way to dispose of it, to whack people just because it was a little less messy than a high caliber weapon. Yeah, this is one they call it a lupara blanca, which means white shotgun in Italian. And that means that you never find the body. In this case, they found the body. Every once in a while, they’ll find the body. Not very often, though. Usually they hide them pretty good. Now, who’d ever thought that Lake Mead would drop that much? Yeah, they dropped it at 100 feet of water, and I don’t think anybody expected it to drop that low. And it could go even lower in the next couple of years here, honestly. Really? Oh, really? It’s still dropping. I thought there’d been some more rain and some snow up in the mountains that were going to add to that. It’s going to be still dropping, huh? Yeah, there has been a fair bit of precipitation this year, but in the areas that count most, where you get most of the runoff, which is up in the mountains of Colorado and Utah, it’s really quite dry, actually. They’ve had some rain, but not much snow, and so they’re talking about a snow drought. Yeah, things could. It just depends. We’ll see how things develop, but it could get bad. Yeah, talk about that gun now. Chicago was noted.

[4:40]For using these 22 caliber high standard i think they’re browning semi-automatic pistols with a silencer on it and they had them out there i believe and they also another interesting thing about the outfit in order to keep the sound down they would load their own shells and so they were had less powder in them and sometimes the shells didn’t do the job that they wanted to do now frank Kulata, who was in Las Vegas working for Tony Splattro during these years, he tells a story about trying to kill a guy with one of those guns and how he had such a hard time getting him killed. So I don’t know how many holes were in this guy’s head, but you got to get somebody just right in the head with that .22 caliber pistol. Yeah, they say it had to be pretty close range. You’re talking about the Jerry Listener murder, I think. Is that right? Yeah. I read about that one. That’s actually the kind of the murder in question in my book is based on that loosely. And so yeah, Kolata advises my main character, Lenny, to load his gun with half loads because they’ve lost their silencer or something. So that’ll keep the sound down. But yeah, I guess Lister ended up with multiple bullets to the head. And when they found them, more than you’d imagine would be necessary.

[5:55]Really? There’s a guy that worked for the Stardust named Jay VanderWalk that disappeared at the time. It disappeared for a long time. Did you look at that one, too, as some of your source material? Yeah. So there’s this great article that’s been turned into a podcast on the Mob Museum website. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that in Las Vegas there. And they suggest there might be three potential victims.

[6:21]VanderMark is one of the—is that the guy you mentioned, George VanderMark? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they call him by Jay. That’s right. Yeah. So, yeah, he is one of the, he’s a missing person, right? From that era, had connections with the Argent company. So they think he, that’s one of the possibilities. He was running the skimming operation, at least in some of the casinos there for Argent. And I guess the, as the gaming control board in Nevada found out about the skimming operation, gradually, they were starting to talk to people. And I think that they were worried that he was going to talk or actually this is, I think the, the outfit suspected he was stealing money from him. I think it was a combination. Stealing money is worse than talking. Right, yeah. So I guess he took off to Mexico, maybe, I read, or Costa Rica even. But I think… He came back. I can’t remember the exact story, but yeah. Yeah. So from what I read, Nick Calabrese, who I guess was a hitman for the outfit, and then turned eventually and started talking to the feds. He suggested that, I guess, Vandermark ended up in a hotel in Phoenix or something, and the outfit sent a couple of hitmen after him and whacked him there. And then Calabrese said they buried his body in the desert. So that means, you know, if that’s true, then obviously it’s not the guy in the barrel, but he’s one of the ones they talk about because they never found his body. Yeah. And I guess the other one I read about was William Crespo.

[7:40]I don’t know that story. Yeah. So the little I know of it is he was a drug runner

[7:48]Stories of the Las Vegas Mob

[7:45]involved with the outfit in Las Vegas. And he got caught kind of landing in the Las Vegas airport coming from Miami with $400,000 worth of cocaine on him. And the feds arrested him. He accepted an offer of immunity to become an informant. And he was set to testify about this drug ring that the outfit was part of. And he actually ended up testifying before a grand jury, got a bunch of folks indicted. I guess one of the names of folks who was indicted was Victor Greger, according to this article. He was a former Argent executive. But then when Crespo himself went to testify, he was set to testify in June 83. And they got to him before then and he never testified. So, he’s another kind of missing person they suspect could be in the barrel. But the article thought the most likely candidate was a guy named Johnny Pappas. I don’t know if you know him at all. Yeah, I don’t know the story of that. Okay. So, this is a Chicago native guy who was involved in some of the Argent Corporation casino work. And he was, I guess by the 70s, late 70s, he was managing this resort on the northern part of Lake Mead called Echo Bay Resort, which was an Argent Corporation Resort.

[9:00]And it’s closed now. It’s not there anymore. It used to be like a hotel and a boat launch. And so he was at the lake at different times. He also owned a boat on Lake Mead. And so in 1976, the day he disappeared, his wife told authorities basically that he went to meet this guy at a restaurant who was interested in buying his boat at Lake Mead. And so they think it could have been a ruse set up by outfit folks luring him basically down to the lake to show him his boat. And then they knock him off and take him out on his own dang boat and drop him in the lake. The motive is a little less clear in this case, but it was around that time when stuff was coming out about the Argent Corporation and the skimming. And they could have just thought he was a liability, might be set to talk or something. Yeah, those are the three that I read about anyway. He just disappeared after this meeting to go sell his boat. Yeah, they found that theory makes sense. They found his car parked in the circus casino parking lot on the strip the next day. And yeah, he’s just gone, disappeared.

[10:01]I’ll be darned. I hadn’t heard that story. That is a pretty likely scenario. Say, hey, I’ll drive and let’s run down there and let’s see that boat. I got the money right here. You show the guy a bunch of money and he’ll drop all caution. It’ll go to the wind. That’s how they do it. and got him isolated then.

[10:18]Yeah. And maybe it’s a last minute deal. So nobody really knows who he’s meeting and where he’s going and that he’s even going. So that’s, that’s a classic in the mob. Yeah. Apparently he told his wife he was going to go sell his boat, but that’s about it. Yeah. I’ll be darned. Yeah. The, as Lake Mead’s gone down, has there been any other bodies or any other things that have been found out there recently? Yeah, there’s been some strange things turned up. One is a sort of a World War II era airplane, honestly, started coming out of the water. But that was known about for some time. You could see it, I guess, from aerial photos. But other bodies, yeah, there’s a few other bodies, just skeletons, nothing in barrels and no gunshot wounds. And so, people just, I think authorities have identified most of those and suspect they were just drowning victims, unfortunate boating accidents and whatnot. But nothing like this body in a barrel. I think they’ve been trying to identify that body. There’s lots of DNA evidence, right? You got still a pretty intact body. But the problem is back in that era, I guess they didn’t have the DNA database to be matching with. Yeah. So, it’s not borne a lot of fruit. I think it’s still an open case, honestly. Really? The chance they have is if one of that guy’s descendants goes to something like 23andMe and then does that. And I know they’ve come up with a deal where they can start running an unknown DNA through those…

[11:44]Files and see if you can come up with a connection and then go back and say, okay, where would this guy have ever come across or be in this other person’s family tree, if you will, and then they can eventually get it. That’s fascinating. Amazing. Yeah, it is what they could do. I had a guy that used to be a professional criminal talking about it. He said, I don’t know why anybody does crime today. He said with the DNA and the cameras and the cell phones and all that, he said, there’s just way, way too many ways to get caught. That’s wild. Yeah. Oh boy. Yeah. I watch a lot of crime shows and I see a lot of that stuff. And everybody watches those crime shows. So they know about those tools out there. So first thing, you got to go get a burner phone. If you’re going to go do something, you better go get a burner phone. And then you better dress up in one of those suits in those English police movies, those white hazmat suits and your whole face covered. Crazy, crazy. Yeah. And then go do it. Don’t use your own car. You better go steal a car somewhere. Man, complicated. It’s too hard. Yes. And even then, if they look at you and say, your phone never moved for 24 hours, but yet you were seen over here or over there. How come you didn’t have your phone with you or your car? You parked your car here for 12 hours and then you came back and got it. What were you doing?

[13:08]It is just crazy, isn’t it? Yeah. But tell us, what’s the storyline of your book? Don’t give too much away. You want people to buy it. I understand that. But tell the guys the storyline of your book. Sure, yeah. So the storyline is, it starts out with the true events of 2022, right? This headline that there’s a body in a barrel shows up on the shore of Lake Mead. And my main protagonist, who’s sort of made up from my imagination, his name’s Lenny Battaglia.

[13:37]The Body in the Barrel

[13:33]And he reads this headline. He’s an old time mob associate. He, at one time when he was young, was connected with the outfit, but ended up getting out of it barely. But he reads this headline and starts to get worried because he’s got a barrel with a body in it that’s his victim farther out in the lake. So this one that he reads about is not his. It’s actually his partners who, in my story, the partners loosely based on Frank Collada, actually.

[14:01]And so he reads this headline, gets worried, goes out in his little boat to try to move his victim farther out into the lake because he’s concerned that his lake, the lake’s continuing to drop and the kind of the falling lakes acts like a ticking clock in my story in some ways. I think the Sopranos did something like this. They thought somebody was going to come up and buy some farm, and they had said, these guys have to dig this body up and move it. So that is not out of the realm of possibility, is it? No, no. But what is out of the realm of possibility is this old guy in his tiny little boat actually moving the barrel. So he goes out with just a gaff with a hook on it and tries to yank it out with his little outboard motor, and it just won’t budge. The thing’s really heavy. If you know anything about water, stuff under water is really heavy. Really heavy. Yeah. He’s wrestling with it and ends up falling in while he’s trying to pull this barrel farther out. And so it’s a big failure. And while he’s falling in, he has this flashback to the killing, basically. And so the story kind of goes from there, but it’s really focused on how he deals with what he’s done, basically.

[15:10]Crime is no mystery from the beginning. it’s not a it’s not a traditional it’s not a traditional police procedural of where who done it yeah it’s not like that it’s more like kind of what is what’s the aftermath what’s the effect of, a terrible crime like this on even the perpetrator yeah yeah and as I said one of my characters is based on Frank Collada who so he was the story takes place in kind of two time frames right we’ve got the, contemporary time frame, but then we got flashbacks to his time at the mob and Frank was his partner in this hit. We’ve also got a character showing up who’s based on Tony Spolatro. I call him Tony Bonucci, named after one of my favorite Italian soccer players.

[15:50]But yeah, so we’ve got this connection to the early 80s, late 70s, and then also this kind of contemporary period. And I understand Frank Collado was actually, he recently just died, right he was he did during covid times i think he he already had copd he was already everything he did he you’d see me to have his oxygen on and so he was already weakened then he got covid during uh during covid that’s a shame you know yeah i did some listening to a podcast he was on in researching my book and it was really fascinating to listen to yeah yeah he is he’s and he’s got his there’s a whole book out there that he mainly just told stories about his life during the whole book. It’s amazing. I did one with him and then added some more clips in from that a long time. One of my earlier ones, I got to know him real early because we had the mob con out there. I knew the guy that was getting it going and I went out to the guy that actually Denny Griffin who wrote the books with Frank Collider, wrote several books with Frank Collider and I’d gotten to know Denny and so Denny invited me to come out and do a program at the first mob conference and I met Frank then. I met him and a couple others after that. He was gruff, but he was a good guy. I mean, he was gruff, I’ll tell you. He wasn’t a guy that just, it was hard to joke around with him. Interesting. Okay, interesting.

[17:12]Yeah, I got a bit of that vibe from the podcast of him that I was listening to. Yeah, it’s funny. Just genuine Italian Chicago, like to the core. Yeah, he was that. He was born and bred, born and bred from early his childhood. He was a Chicago mobster. There’s no doubt about that. That’s wild.

[17:32]Yeah, Denny Griffin’s book was really helpful to me, actually, in my research. Yeah, the battle for Las Vegas in particular was. Yeah, that’s the one I used. Denny was that. Denny’s dead now. I don’t know if you knew that. I did know that, unfortunately. Yeah, I was pretty good friends with Denny. He helped me out a lot when I got started and got me out there. And he gave me for my first documentary, which was about the skimming, a lot about the skimming. He got me several people to interview, lined me up with them and verified, hey, this guy’s okay and work with him. And I flew out to Las Vegas and interviewed a bunch of people and interviewed him too. But he got me an employee of the Best Casino that knew Lefty Rosenthal really well. She gave us some really great sound bites. I get calls today or emails wanting to know if she’s still around. She’s died since. People are still trying to find her to get to interview her. That’s wild. That’s wild. That’s because old Denny Griffin, he was a good guy. He really was. That’s neat. His book was certainly good. Yeah. Interesting. So what else do you want to say about your book before we get out of here? Besides, go out and buy it. Go out and buy it. It’s on Amazon, I’m sure, and I’ll have a link to the Amazon site. I appreciate that. Yeah, it is on Amazon. What do I want to say about it? I guess the other thing to say is it’s got some, I don’t want to give too much away, but gun violence is really a big part of the book. Not only this single mob hit, but also it wraps in.

[18:56]This mass shooting in 2017, the one where the guy was a shooter was in the hotel suites up high and he was shooting across the street into that country music festival. So it’s really funny. I compare it to two things, right? I compare it to Casino, which is this famous Scorsese film from that mobster era, which everybody knows about. And actually, Frank Collado was in. He had a cameo in that. Yeah, that’s funny. But then the other thing I compare the book to is Dostoevsky’s Crime and Punishment, which is obviously this sort of towering literary novel. But the parallel is just dealing with this aftermath of violence, right? What happens when you kill somebody and what’s the sort of dealing with guilt and fear and the consequences.

[19:44]Exploring Themes of Violence

[19:40]So I’d say those are the sort of things I point to as parallels for the book. I don’t know. There’s a lot more to say. Like you’ve said, it’s grounded in true life crime, but it’s also definitely fiction. I’ve made up the better part of it. Yeah.

[19:54]All right. Aaron Mead. The book is Body in the Barrel. Aaron, I really appreciate you coming on the show. And guys, I’ll have links to this book down below. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It’s been a pleasure meeting you and hearing some of your stories. And I’m enjoying your podcast. And it’s been a privilege to be on here. So thank you. Okay. We like to hear that. Thanks a lot, Aaron.

[20:17]Yeah, thank you. Okay. Okay. I’ll do a little extra here in a minute. I just want to tell you something. When I went to law school at the police department and my favorite class was water law and I did my, you have to do a 50 page publishable paper to get out of law school. I did mine on Western water law and it was just, I was fascinated by that Western water law and all the things that go into that, the Rio Grande Pact and all the different political entities that are trying to use that water and how they use it. And then how the EPA rules and figured in on using water out West. And the fact that out West, they treated water like they treated gold or some other mineral. If you found the source, you owned it. Whereas they had riparian interest in

[21:06]The Complexities of Water Law

[21:03]laws back East here, where you have plenty of water. You can use all the water you want as long as you don’t reduce it. But nobody owns that source of water.

[21:12]If it’s a big source, it’s just a fascinating topic. Yeah, it is a bit of the Wild West, like applies to water out West. It’s that first in time, first in right thing. It’s pretty crazy. The Colorado River especially is so complicated. You got seven, seven states take water from it. You got the federal government running the dams there. You’ve got Mexico that takes a portion of it. You’ve got this whole hundred year history of law layered on top of each other. And even today, the rules on how the water gets distributed are about to expire in this year. And so we’re trying to come up with new rules. And it’s just so tough because…

[21:49]There’s less water in the river than there used to be, and so the old agreements don’t quite work out, and we’re having to take reductions, and, you know, who takes what? It’s just sort of a big mess, honestly. We’re fighting over it. I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up in court, honestly. But that would be not a good outcome, but it seems potentially likely. Yeah. There’s a judge I heard say once that, you better make a deal outside of my courtroom. If you come into my courtroom, my decision is not going to hurt everybody’s feelings with my decision. Yeah. And inevitably, like the folks, the special masters or whatever the justices are that are making the decisions, they don’t know as much about water as we do. If we can’t work it out, it’s going to happen. I know. And there are just so many pressures that are on it. And it’s tough. And plus, one thing we haven’t mentioned is a huge growth in population over the last 20, 30 years out there. It’s true. Yeah, it’s true. Yes, unbelievable how many people have moved to Phoenix and Albuquerque and Las Vegas, especially Las Vegas, but just being such a huge growth in population out. And before it was desert that nobody really, they didn’t live, they didn’t want to live out there.

[22:55]It’s true. Yeah. And surprisingly, like in a lot of these cities, actually, the demand for water has not increased. Like in Las Vegas, it’s actually gone down. Oh, really? They have done an incredible job of conserving water. Same in Los Angeles. The demands for water have gone down despite the population growth. The thing that makes it challenging is that the whole pie is shrinking and it’s the agricultural use that’s the highest. I think it’s something like 85% or 80% of the water in the Colorado Basin is agriculture. And so, those are the things you’re going to need to find conservation there, which is harder.

[23:30]Like those Israelis did, it was something called drip irrigation where they used, they were more skillful in the way they used their water in their fields down in the desert. Yeah, and some of the folks that’s been, some of the agricultural folks have been converting to that kind of irrigation for quite some time now. So, it’s like we’re wringing out every sponge we got and running out of options. But, yeah, we’ll figure it out one way or the other here. Yeah, I’m sure we will. This is America, after all.

[23:59]Or is it still America? It’s hard to know. Yeah, it’s hard to know. We’re going down that path. Looking a little different these days. Yes, it is. Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay, Aaron, I really appreciate it. I’ll get in touch with you whenever I send an email with the links after I put them up. It’ll be, I don’t know. It’ll probably be a month or more before I get it up. Sure. I stay way ahead. I’ve got quite a few kind of scheduled up for the next two weeks now or three. Smart. Two weeks now, one just went up today. So I put it up, video, I put them up on Sunday evening, and then the audio comes out like 4 o’clock in the morning on Monday morning. Okay. Don’t ask me why. I just started doing that. Yeah. No worries. It gets ahead of everybody. Then they can see it. Hey, I’ve got a question for you, if you don’t, if you don’t mind. No. Do you know about any contemporary organized crime activity in Las Vegas? Is there still stuff going on or is it? I don’t. I really don’t. Yeah. Okay.

[24:59]Trying to think of a source for you. I’ll check with a source for you. Okay. I know it’s not Midwest folks from your era, but yeah. Yeah, no, probably something up there out at Los Angeles and people that moved out there a generation ago and stayed under the radar. And then, of course, international. Yeah. Those like Russians and people like that out of Phoenix or in Los Angeles, both. Anyhow, I’ll check on that. Okay. Yeah. If you think of something, that’d be great. I’d be interested. Okay. Okay. I will. All right. Thank you. Thank you again. Take care. All right. Bye-bye. Can you go ahead and do, can you exit the meeting? I’m going to do a little ending thing here. I will. Yeah.

[25:40]That was interesting, folks. I did Waterlaw in, well, that was interesting, folks. I really liked Aaron and I think his Body in the Barrel book is going to be pretty darn good.

[25:53]Concluding Thoughts on Crime and History

[25:50]So I’d recommend you try it. I haven’t actually read it myself. I’ve read excerpts from it. I’ve got it here. I need to sit down and take some time and read it. I like when they base it on the real life people and some people that I know something about. It’s kind of like hearing stories about your hometown. Oh, yeah, I know that guy. Oh, yeah, I remember when that happened. And it’s an interesting thing, the lowering of Lake Mead. He and I, he’s a water engineer, and he and I talked a little bit more about it. I find it a fascinating topic, that Western water law and Western water rights and how that all works. It’s different than back east where we have plenty of water. So don’t forget, I’ve got videos on Amazon Prime for rent. Just use my name and mafia, Gary Jenkins Mafia on Amazon Prime, and you’ll find them. And I’ve got books there. Do the same thing. Gary Jenkins Mafia books. I’ve got three books on Amazon and I’ve got them on my website. And I always appreciate when people make comments on my YouTube channel or on my Gangland Wire podcast page. We’re just here to report mob history. That’s all we want to do is report mob history. And in this case, we got a fictional book that’s reporting mob history based on real mob history. I’ll do that every once in a while, too.

[27:07]So thanks a lot, guys. I always appreciate doing this show. It’s a way to end my life out, if you will. I’m down to that last quarter, maybe down to the last two minutes one of these days, but we’ll get there. Thanks a lot, guys.

Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history through his unique perspective on the mafia. In this episode of Gangland Wire, Gary Jenkins welcomes an unusual guest from the world of organized crime storytelling—cartoonist Brett Juliano, creator of the Dust Bunny Mafia comic series. Instead of traditional books or documentaries, Brett tells real Mafia stories through short, three-panel comics featuring his unique cartoon characters while staying grounded in historical research and documented sources. Brett explains how his lifelong interest in animation and storytelling evolved into a project that blends true crime history with visual humor and commentary. After moving to Chicago, he became fascinated with the city’s underworld history and began transforming real mob stories into illustrated comic strips that challenge Hollywood myths and highlight lesser-known facts about organized crime. His work draws on true crime books, FBI files, court transcripts, and podcasts, including Gangland Wire itself.

Each comic strip distills a real historical moment into a visual gag or ironic twist that reveals the strange reality behind mob legends. Gary and Brett discuss several Dust Bunny Mafia comics and the real events behind them: The “Sicilian Flu” Courtroom Act A humorous look at a tactic sometimes used by mob figures: appearing frail in court to gain sympathy or delay proceedings. Wiseguys who were partying the night before might suddenly appear in a wheelchair, wrapped in blankets or hooked to oxygen tanks when they walked into court.

Lucky Luciano and the Myth of “Lucky” Brett examines the legendary story that Charles “Lucky” Luciano got his nickname after surviving a brutal kidnapping and beating. His comic plays with the idea that mobsters often exaggerated their own legends—especially when trying to impress people. The Kansas City Mob Search – Carl “Tuffy” DeLuna One comic comes directly from Gary Jenkins’ own experience investigating the Kansas City mob. When police searched DeLuna’s home in 1979, the mobster calmly offered coffee and eventually led investigators straight to the basement, where incriminating notes were stored. The scene shows how, sometimes, the truth of organized crime investigations is stranger than fiction.

Bugsy Siegel in Rainy Portland Another comic explores the obscure story of Bugsy Siegel visiting Portland to meet local crime boss Al Winters, only to endure two straight weeks of rain—highlighting the contrast between Hollywood-style mob glamour and the less glamorous reality of underworld negotiations.

A New Graphic Anthology on Kickstarter Brett is now launching a major new collection of his comics titled: “Family Business: An Offer You Can’t Refuse.” The book will include: 130+ pages of full-color comics More than 230 true crime strips Historical commentary explaining the real story behind each comic Additional artwork parodying mob businesses and underworld culture The project will be funded through a Kickstarter campaign beginning March 24, with the finished book expected to ship later in the year once printing is completed. Click here for 👉 Kickstarter Campaign: 

Where to Find Brett Juliano You can explore Brett’s comics, books, and merchandise here: Dust Bunny Mafia Website:  Online Store:

Brett also shares his comics across social media platforms including Instagram, Threads, and Facebook groups focused on organized crime history. For fans of Mafia history, Dust Bunny Mafia offers a refreshing twist—true crime storytelling through comics that balance humor with serious historical research. As Gary notes during the interview, separating myth from reality is essential in mob history, and Brett’s work uses a creative medium to do exactly that.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] hey, are you Wire tappers? Gary Jenkins back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence unit detective and, I investigated the Mafia and I’m still working on the Mafia only. We work on mafia history now, and I have a kind of unusual, different sort of a story today.

I have a man who has been doing. Cartoons based on real mob stories, but he has his own little cartoon characters. It’s called Dust Bunny Mafia. If you’re on my gangland Wire podcast group, you might’ve seen that, and he’s on other places in social media. So welcome Brett Juliano. Welcome Brett.

Thanks, Gary. Thanks for having me on. All right, cool. Guys, let me, I’m just gonna give you a little taste of what this looks like. It’s when I first saw it. That, that’s interesting. I appreciate a, a different way of doing these kinds of things. All right. That should be, there you go.

All right. There you go. There’s which one was that? That was the Sicilian flu. Brett tell the guys a little bit about, what got you [00:01:00] into this and then we’ll talk about each one of these images that you sent me. Yeah, so I’ve been doing comics and the Dust Bunny mafia for over a dozen years.

Long story short, I wanted to be a animator when I was, young. And then as I grew up, I always loved the idea of telling stories through visual form. And then after moving out to Chicago about 10 years ago, I really wanted to connect with the principle of the local history of the Chicago Underworld and retell it through my Dust Bunny Mafia Comex.

I try and. Do it in a way in which the I try to break the myths of Hollywood and a lot of things. I try and get my, research through primary sources. So I’ll, listen to True Crime podcasts like yours. I have a huge collection at home of True Crime books, looking through FBI files, court transcripts, things like that.

And [00:02:00] I just want to. Find ways to compose those things into three panel comics that kind of address myths and other, aspects of the mafia. So I know you, you came to the Mob Con out in Las Vegas and had a whole display of different things. So you even have a whole little a book too, don’t you?

Or you’ve got one or more books that are a little bit longer than just a one three panel? Yes. Yeah, I’ve got, with the Dust Bunny Mafia comic. Overall I am, I’ve done about 10 books total. Okay. I’ve got three big graphic novel trade collections, and then, as you’re aware, the little based on true story booklets like these ones, like where these scripts come in, I now am collecting that into a larger anthology collection that’s gonna be 132 page full color that has over 200.

About 230 individual strips with the commentary. Do you have a website or how do people [00:03:00] get hold of you if they’d want to get some of this? Yeah, you can find me comics dot dust bunny mafia.com or Dust Bunny mafia dot Big Cartel is the online store and I ship everything out myself. I’ve done a bunch of crowdfunding campaigns, over 20 of them, and I’ve shipped all over the world with my comics and basically searched Dust Bunny Mafia.

I’m on. Like you mentioned earlier, a lot of the Facebook groups, I’m on Instagram, threads X, all the all the social platforms and I’ll guys, I’ll have a link to his website in the in the show notes. Brett, tell us a little bit about this one. This is the or I’ve got the Sicilian flu.

Tell us about this story here. What’s the real story here? So that story comes that strip is based on an interview with Joaquin Phoenix, Joaquin Garcia, excuse me who was known as Jack. And [00:04:00] he was interviewed, I believe on the Before the Lights podcast with Tommy Canal. And he was telling a story about Greg De Palma going to court one day and while he was being, while he was being, deposed and brought in for questioning. Basically it’s addressing the myth of the actions and the over exaggerations that mob officers will do to tie things up or misdirect. So he was talking about how. The wise guys will be out eating and drinking, partying, at night or on the weekends.

And then they’ll come to court in a wheelchair, maybe have a blanket. Some of ’em will even throw, have a little oxygen tank and, just the absurdity of things that they will, the lengths they will go to to try and misdirect or hope things up. Interesting. Yeah, that’s a common kind of a deal that more not just mobsters do that.

There’s other criminals have done that too. I’ve seen that myself. So let’s talk about [00:05:00] two is

let be a lady. Get that one up there. All right. What’s the story of luck? Be a lady. So luck Be a lady is talking about the myth of Charles Luck, Luciano’s nickname of Lucky. Yes. And about, how it was one night, one kidnapping that, where he got the scar and the people dragged him into, Staten Island.

They. Speed him overnight, tortured him, set him free, and then that’s how it was, that one event is what made him or gave him the nickname. Lucky. When in actuality what I’m paring here is that, he’s trying to impress girls in my comic and, with each drink and stuff, he adds more myth and more legend to the nickname.

And. I believe, the event happened. I’m not trying to discredit that. I just [00:06:00] think he, and I’ve seen sources say that he had the nickname long before the beating and like the one night, event. And it wasn’t that instance that gave him the nickname Lucky. Interesting. I never thought about that, what I always thought.

I think that was I think he reported that himself in that book that he wrote with another author. I think that’s where that story came from. I’m not sure but I always figured he probably had some coppers tuned him up and, but he had to make it into a much better story and make himself much tougher.

Yeah, of course. And they would do that back in those days. They’d tune your ass up bad.

All right. Let’s see. Now we got,

oh, I know this one.

Show me the way I. So this one is based on your account? Yeah, that’s so it’s talking about Carl Tuffy de Luna’s home being searched after Valentine’s Day or around Valentine’s Day [00:07:00] in 1979, where the Kansas City Police department and the FBI. Executed a, search warrant on his house.

And so I set it up very cordial in which, my detectives are, being served coffee and then. The line that I loved most from the book was basically where he is like, all right, you might as well come into the basement. That’s where you’ll find the good stuff. And he’s, leading them around the property and everything saying, if you wanna find this, here’s where you’re gonna get this.

Almost like it was a art collector or, someone’s showing off a house. And so it’s one of those instances where, the truth is stranger that fiction. And so I was like. Once I saw that, I’m like, okay, I can translate this into a comic and, reach a broader audience. Yeah. Really?

Yeah. It’s I’ll never forget, I, he tells his wife, says, Sandy said, fix these officers a pot of coffee. So she was visibly making coffee and he was kind, he would [00:08:00] follow ’em around a little bit. Point stuff out. They went and they come up from downstairs. They brought two or three guns up from upstairs, downstairs hey, tough.

Where’d you get this? And then, it was getting like midnight or something and it was like, we are gonna be there. And we were there in the end, almost till four in the morning. And I, and it’s one agent, Shay Airy. He is dead now, but he was a long time mob. Investigator goes back to, to when they first formed the top hoodlum squad in Kansas City.

And so he knew Tuffy pretty well. They were familiar with each other. And finally Tuffy says, Shay, you might as well come on downstairs. That’s where the good stuff is. I remember thinking, oh my God. And that’s where they found all the notes that he’d been keeping. See, he knew that was good stuff.

He knew the importance of those notes and a little additional story on those notes. The next day or two, he’s meeting with some of these other guys with Joe Ragusa and Charlie Moretina in a restaurant, and they’ve got a bug on this table where they’re at. And he said, here’s what he says. He says, I got caught with a [00:09:00] bunch of shit.

He said, I had it on the bag and I was gonna throw it away but man, they, I just didn’t get to the trashing time and I didn’t get it thrown away. He wasn’t got thrown away. He was just one of these guys that kept everything. And and that bunch of shit that he was talking about with those, those notes the infamous notes.

All right, let’s see here. I’ll try.

This is on a counter rain.

Okay, there we go. So this is on a counter rain. So tell me the story on this one. I’m not sure. So this comes from a local myth about Portland, Oregon. And so I’ve got my Bugsy Siegel Ben Siegel character, and then he’s meeting with Al Winters, who was the local boss of kind of crime boss in the area.

And apparently the story set goes that Ben Siegel visited him. And he spent two weeks in Portland trying to find a way for them to [00:10:00] work together to open up a gambling casino or something. And the, over the two weeks, it didn’t rain. It didn’t stop raining every single day that Bugsy was there.

It, didn’t, it didn’t let up. And so he the idea is that, we don’t have any real good accounts on whether this did or didn’t happen. There’s very little known about, the Portland crime family and those things. There’s only a couple books been written as far as my knowledge.

And but it’s just playing with the fact that, the Pacific Northwest and Portland is rainy for a long time, and a mobster who’s more, affiliated with Hollywood and Las Vegas and sunny Southern California, Portland would be a nightmare. Yeah. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. And you must have talked to Casey McBride on that one. Our friend Casey McBride from Portland. And ’cause he talked a lot, he’s talked a lot [00:11:00] about Al Winter and he was like the, I think started during prohibition and the crime boss of Portland. If you think of Portland having a crime bus.

And it wouldn’t make sense if if he was gonna do anything outside of Portland and even in, even if he had, was making any money. Why, buggy Siegel, he felt like he was a West Coast boss. I got a feeling and anything that happened on the West coast and he heard about it, he probably would be coming around wanting to get a little piece of that action.

That’s how they are. They hear you’re getting some kind of criminal action that’s organized and steady and regular. They’re gonna come around, try to get a piece of it. So I would imagine that’s what he was up there doing. And there’s no doubt Al Winter was the. Erstwhile crime boss and we had a guy from ended up in Kansas City, came through Kansas City.

He had a relative here named Joe Augusto, who ended up in Las Vegas. But he went to Portland for a while. He was, and he was a Sicilian and he had different scams going. We’d never heard of him when he appeared in Las Vegas, but he ended up [00:12:00] catching a case up there in neither Washington State or Oregon, I can’t remember which one now for some kind of a scam.

He was running. He came back down and he got in with the people at the Tropicana and Joe Agosto Somehow I know how he did it. He, and he was connected to Nick Ella here in Kansas City, and he used, he parlayed that connection. With the people that owned the Tropicana, there was several partners in that.

And they wanted a big loan to, to amp up the Tropicana, to keep up with the other expansion of the other casinos, and they needed to get this big loan. It’s hard to get loans for casinos, regular banks back then, regular banks would not make loans, but the Teamsters Union would. And so he parlayed his connection with Nick Novella.

Claiming, promising that they would get a big Teamsters loan. And then N Novella made sure they didn’t get it for a while as he kept working his way in and getting more employees that he, that owed him into places and then they started to skim. And that’s that’s a little [00:13:00] Kansas City connection to the northwest part of the United States.

Yeah. Interesting. Tell us a little more about it. What do you got planned now? You’re putting those little three, three panel true crime ones into will you organize it by family or how will you do that? Yeah, so I’ve got so the collection’s called family Business. An offer you can’t refuse.

And it’s going to be crowdfunded via Kickstarter starting on March 24th and run through mid-April. I expect the book to be then available for public demand in June or July of this year. ‘Cause it takes a little time to print everything. But yeah, I’ve got it organized roughly into like geographic area.

So I start with Chicago and then I, for the most part will go chronologically. So I’ll find, oh, I see. The strips about Johnny Torrio and Al Capone, and then move up, through the years until you’re talking about Ian Kana, Antonio Caro, and things like that. And that’ll hit each of the [00:14:00] kind of big regions.

So I’ve got everything from, chicago in the Midwest, and then I’ll go into down to Cincinnati and hit things on and Newport, Kentucky during prohibition where George Remus and some of the Cleveland Syndicate started gambling dens and things like that. And then I move into New York and do the same thing.

But I’ve got. I’ve been working on these comics for this is the seventh year that I’ve been doing these True Story comics, so I’m gonna have over two hundred and thirty, two thirty five in this collection. And then Eve’s Comic has a little blurb, a small paragraph, explaining the true life story that inspired the comics.

And so throughout the book it’s gonna be two to four comics on a page or in a spread. And then there’s gonna be different different kind of segues in between in which I’ll have some of the graphic design work [00:15:00] that I’ve done to parody mafia businesses, like ante cigars based on Carmine ante if he had a cigar shop.

And I’ll do things like that. And so I’ll have like little interludes or kind of chapter breaks. Between different stories and which I’ll also explain some, give some context for, the casual true crime fans, and you had t-shirts with ante cigar shops and different things like that too, don’t you?

Yep. You had those made up for as gifts or what as rewards for your crowd crowdsourcing thing. ’cause I think I’ve got one of those ante cigar shop t-shirts or I used to, I, it’s around here somewhere. I don’t know, sometimes I run through t-shirts and I get some many and I just start getting rid of ’em and starting over again.

Oh yeah. I’ve got, I try and get one for each of the campaigns that I run. And and when I do that, I’ve now got a huge stack and I’m like, yeah. Yeah. And it’s just ’cause I want to test the quality, make sure I have good. Product for my backers, and then I’m like, I don’t really [00:16:00] need another T-shirt, but I’m gonna offer ’em.

I first started in this first movie I made up a whole bunch of t-shirts. I bought 300 t-shirts that gang land wire, and I think I’m, this is eight or nine years later and I’m down to one or two left of the original t-shirts. Then I discovered print on demand that Printful that you told me about.

And so now I just print ’em, I get one done at a time. Yep. For my gang led Wired, I don’t really try to do any other t-shirts. I don’t know. It’s sometimes it’s like you just, it gets so spread, so thin, doing different things that I run outta time myself. Yeah. Now, are these books or are they just the graphic novels, or are they just available off your website, or do you have some of ’em up on Amazon or places like that?

Yeah, so Meet the Family. My first dust Bunny Mafia graphic novel is on Amazon. And then the rest of ’em are on my website or on Kickstarter. [00:17:00] When I have the campaigns going, I’ll usually have different add-ons that people can, pledge for to get all the books or the different, like mobster playing cards that I’ve done, things like that.

Interesting. Interesting. All right, Brett Juliano, I really appreciate you coming on here and we will get this up and guys if you’re interested in this, get hold of old Brett. I’ll have the contact information. He he’ll be glad to, to ship you out some stuff and he needs, I, I appreciate anybody that does he does, Brett does everything.

Characters are not real, but the stories are real. So I appreciate anybody that bases anything on the real stories ’cause there’s so much myth out there and so much bullshit that that, so I appreciate that you do that, Brett. Thank you Gary. That means a lot. Okay. All right, Brett. Good talking to you.

Yeah, thanks for having me on. Okay. All right, Brett. I’ll I don’t know next week or two, maybe I’ll go ahead and slide this up there. [00:18:00] No, I appreciate it. I’ll send you a link. I’ll send you a link whenever we, I get it up there. Sounds great. Thanks Gary. Okay. Alright. Bye. Bye.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, I sit down with retired FBI agent Geoff Kelly, a specialist in art theft investigations who inherited one of the most notorious unsolved cases in American history—the 1990 robbery at the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. He recently wrote a book about this theft titled 13 Perfect Fugitives: The True Story of Mob, Murder, and the World’s Largest Art Heist.

Kelly’s law enforcement career began as a New York City transit police officer before transitioning to the FBI. Like many agents, he initially sought violent crime work. Instead, he was assigned to economic crimes before eventually transferring to a violent crime squad. It was there that he encountered the Gardner case—a cold case largely untouched by senior agents at the time. The robbery itself remains extraordinary: two men posing as police officers gained entry to the museum and stole 13 works of art, including masterpieces by Rembrandt. More than three decades later, none of the works have been recovered.

Inside the Gardner Heist

Geoff explains how art theft is often misunderstood. Popular culture portrays refined, sophisticated criminals orchestrating elaborate capers. The reality, he says, is usually more opportunistic and frequently violent. Art theft often intersects with organized crime, drug trafficking, and even homicide. Massachusetts has a documented history of art-related crimes, and several individuals connected to the Gardner investigation met violent ends. The criminal underworld surrounding stolen art is less about wealthy collectors hiding paintings in private vaults and more about leverage—using artwork as collateral in criminal negotiations.

The FBI’s Art Crime Evolution

Following the 2003 looting of Iraq’s National Museum during the Baghdad invasion, the FBI formalized its Art Crime Team. Kelly discusses how intelligence gathering, informants, and international cooperation became central tools in recovering stolen artifacts. He emphasizes that solving art crimes often depends less on forensic breakthroughs and more on human intelligence. Informants remain essential, especially in cases where organized crime overlaps with high-value theft.

Kelly also discusses his upcoming book, 13 Perfect Fugitives, which explores the intersections of mobsters, murder, and the illicit art market.

Organized Crime and the Reality of Stolen Art

Drawing on my own experience working organized crime in Kansas City, I found clear parallels between traditional mob rackets and art theft networks. The same structures—intimidation, secrecy, and violence—apply. Once a painting disappears into criminal circulation, it becomes a liability as much as an asset.

Kelly challenges the myth that thieves profit easily from masterpieces. High-profile works are difficult to sell. The black-market art world is volatile and dangerous. In many cases, the artwork becomes bargaining collateral rather than a cash windfall.

A Case Still Waiting for Closure

More than 30 years later, the Gardner Museum still displays empty frames where the paintings once hung. Kelly remains committed to the idea that public awareness may eventually generate new leads.  The Gardner heist stands as both a cultural tragedy and a criminal mystery—one that continues to intersect with organized crime, violence, and international intrigue.

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To purchase one of my books, click here.

Transcript

[0:00] Hey, you guys, Gary Jenkins back here in studio Gangland Wire. Y’all know me. I’m a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective and now podcaster and documentary filmmaker. I have in the studio today… Jeff Kelly, he’s a now-retired FBI agent. He was an expert in recovering stolen artifacts and art pieces. He was involved. He wasn’t involved in the original theft of the Boston art theft, the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, but he ended up inheriting that case. So welcome, Jeff. Hi. Thanks, Gary. Nice to be here. And guys, I need to mention this right off the bat. Jeff has a book, 13 Perfect Fugitives, The True Story of the Mob, Murder, and the World’s Largest Art Heist. Be out on Amazon. I’ll have links down below in the show notes if you want to get that book. I think it would be pretty interesting. I was telling Jeff, I just interviewed Joe Ford, the million-dollar detective, the guy that goes after classic cars, and I read that book. I love these kind of caper kind of books and caper crimes. Those are the ones I like the best is the caper crimes. And Jeff is an expert at working caper crimes. And that’s what these are, capers. So Jeff, how did you get into this? Now you came on the FBI. You were a policeman before, I believe. So tell the guys a little bit about yourself and your FBI career. Yeah, I started out with the Metropolitan Transportation Authority Police in New York City. It was a transit cop. I did that for three years. And then I got into the FBI in October of 95.

[1:30] And my goal was always, I wanted to work violent crime. That’s what drew me to law enforcement in the first place, working bank robberies and kidnappings and fugitives. I had to do my five years on working economic crime, telemarketing fraud. It was interesting, but not all that exciting. And finally in 2000, I got my transfer to the violent crime squad. And I loved working it. And I did it for my entire career from then on, right up until my retirement in 2024. But back then, art theft was considered a major theft violation,

[2:01] and it was worked by the Violent Crime Squad. And so in 2002… My supervisor dumped this old moribund cold case in my lap. It was the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum heist.

[2:15] Nobody wanted it on the squad, so they figured, let’s give it to the new guy. I was ecstatic to get it because I’d heard about it. I went to school in Boston. I went to Boston University and graduated the year before it happened, but I knew about it.

[2:28] That’s how I started working this case, this particular case, and then the following year during the U.S., there was a, the U.S. And coalition forces invaded Baghdad in Iraq. And during a 36-hour period, more than 15,000 objects of very, very important cultural history were looted from the National Museum of Iraq. And it’s really one of the most important museums in the world in terms of our shared history. Kind of the cradle of civilization over there in the Tigers and Euphrates River. Yeah, and that was the time when the FBI kind of belatedly realized that there was no art crime team to investigate this. And of course, FBI agents have been working art theft like any other property crime since the beginning of the FBI’s existence, but there was no codified team. So they did a canvas for the team in 2004 and I applied for it because at this point I’d been working the Gardner case for a couple of years and really was fascinated by it and made the team. And so then over the next 20 years, we continued to expand the team both in size and in scope and in our intelligence base and knowledge base. And when I left the Bureau in 2024, it was and still is a tremendous team with a lot of very dedicated and professional agents and professional support.

[3:51] Now, guys, if you don’t know about the Isabella Stewart Gardner case, there was a Netflix documentary on it a few years ago. It was an art museum in Boston.

[4:01] Two guys showed up. They had Boston police uniforms on, and they got in. They basically, it was an armed robbery, and they took control of the museum. The guards were in there late at night and took these really valuable paintings out. I believe you told me earlier they were Remington paintings. We’ll get into that. And it was a violent crime. It was an armed robbery of paintings, and you told me about other armed robberies of paintings. I think you got into some other armed robberies of paintings. You always think of, as you mentioned before, the Thomas Crown Affair character that goes out and does these sophisticated art thefts. That’s not always true, is it? It’s never that way, but it doesn’t matter. Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story. Everybody wants to believe that art thefts are pulled off by the Thomas Crown Affairs and these gentlemen thieves repel in through skylights and do all that fancy stuff, put it in their underground lair. That’s just not the way it works. But if you look to art theft.

[4:55] Massachusetts really is a cradle of art theft in this country, and it’s very unique. The first armed robbery of a museum occurred in Boston in 1972. It was committed by a guy named Al Monday, who was a prolific art thief. And they stole four pieces from the Worcester Art Museum in central Massachusetts with a gun. They ended up shooting the guard. And one of the pieces that they stole was a Rembrandt called St. Bartholomew.

[5:26] And in keeping with the milieu of true art thieves, the paintings were stored on a pig farm just over the state line in Rhode Island. And when this Connecticut safecracker by the name of Chucky Carlo, who was looking at some serious time in prison for some of the crimes that he committed, when he found out that Al Monday had these paintings, he just simply kidnapped Al Monday and stuck a gun in his ribs and said he would kill him if he didn’t give him the paintings. which is no honor among thieves. And Al turned over the paintings, Chucky returned them, and he got a very significant break on his pending jail sentence. Right here in 1972, Boston thieves see Rembrandt as a valuable get-out-of-jail-free card.

[6:09] And then if we jump forward three years to 1975, there was a very skilled art thief, really a master thief by the name of Miles Conner. I interviewed Miles for my book. It was very gracious of him to sit down with me for it. And he had robbed or committed a burglary of the Woolworth estate up in Maine, the family, the five and dime family magnets. And he got caught for it because he tried to sell those paintings to an undercover FBI agent. And so he was looking at 12 years in prison for it. And he was out on bail. And he reached out to a family friend who was a state trooper. And he asked him, how can I get away with this one? How can I get out of this? Because he was in serious trouble. The trooper’s response was meant to be hyperbolic. The trooper said, Miles, it’s going to take you a Rembrandt to get out of this one.

[6:57] And so Miles said, okay, I’ll go get a Rembrandt. And he got a crew together and they did a daylight smash and grab at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, just across the street from the Gardner. And they stole Rembrandt, the girl in a gold-trimmed cloak.

[7:12] And he was able to return that painting. Instead of doing 12 years, he did 28 months. And he even managed to, he told me he even managed to get the $10,000 reward in the process. So you have this atmosphere in Massachusetts that Rembrandts are a valuable commodity, right? They can help you out in a jam. And so I think it’s no coincidence that in 1990, when the Gardner Museum heist came down, the Gardner Museum had this array of motion sensors all throughout the museum. It would alert to wherever you went, every gallery, hallway, whatever.

[7:49] And we know from these motion sensors that after, as you said, the two guys went in disguised as cops and bluffed their way into the museum, they made a beeline for the Dutch room, which is the room of all things Rembrandt. They stole three Rembrandts. They stole a fourth piece called Landscape with an Obelisk, which was actually by Govard Flink, but it had been misattributed to Rembrandt until the mid 80s. And then they took a large Rembrandt oil-on-panel off the wall and it was recovered the next morning leaning against a piece of furniture. We believe they just overlooked it in the dark. So out of the 13 pieces taken, three were Rembrandt, a fourth was misattributed to Rembrandt, and there was going to be a 14th piece taken, which was also Rembrandt. It definitely falls into that theory that this was going to be a hold-on to these pieces for a while and see if you can use them for a break.

[8:48] Interesting. Now, back in the 70s, for example, when somebody would work in an art robbery like that or an art theft, you got your tried and true ways of working a crime. You got to have sources, you got to have witnesses, and hopefully you can get a crime like this. You can get a source that says, hey, this guy, we had a guy in Kansas City that he was a fence for these kinds of guys. He had an antique auction and he took all this stuff and got it somewhere else. So at the time, just use your regular police methods. And what changed over the years as you’ve done this? Yeah, certainly we’ve become much more sophisticated with the techniques that we use. But at the end of the day, it’s always still going to be intelligence. But I found from working my entire career in violent crime, virtually my whole career in violent crime, the sources are crucial. Having a good informant can make and break a case. And working art theft investigations, you’re certainly going to have the same types of fences of informants, fences for stolen property and what they’re hearing about what organized crime guys are doing and what drug guys are doing. But it also opened up a whole new avenue of sources for me as working in art investigations, because now you’ve got pawn shops and gallery owners and auction houses, and they’re in a position to know when not only when stolen artwork is coming in, but also fakes and forgeries. We spoke about this, that.

[10:16] Somebody comes in with one valuable piece that would be very difficult for somebody in his or her position to come across one piece like this, let alone a dozen of them. That really points to probably a fake. And so that’s really the key to solving these things is just having a good intelligence base who’s going to let us know about when something comes up that’s either stolen or it’s been forged.

[10:43] Brings up a question. In my mind, did you ever work a gallery owner or a gallery

[10:48] that then would filter in, knowingly filter in some fakes every once in a while? They couldn’t do it 100% of the time, but you could certainly make some extra money by filtering fakes out of it because many people would get it and they’d never know. Nobody would ever know. Listen, it is a really difficult thing when you’re working these types of crimes because unlike bank robber, you go into a bank and you stick them up with a gun and take them on. It’s not up to the government to be able to prove at trial that you knew that the bank was insured by the FDIC. You went in and you robbed it, you committed the offense. When you’re talking about interstate transportation of stolen property or possession of stolen property, there are what’s called specific intent crimes, meaning you have to prove the element of knowledge. You have to be able to prove that the person knew that that item was stolen. Not that it said it was stolen. and you had to show that they knew it. And that’s a really high hurdle to overcome. And typically what we do to try and prove that specific intent is we’re going to go through.

[11:53] Recorded statements made to a source or to an undercover or emails or texts or something that we can show that this person knew that item was stolen. And so we would see that a lot in auction houses and galleries. There’s a lot of willful blindness where a lot of gallery owners and auction houses, they’re going to look the other way because it’s too lucrative to pass up. And in fact, in 2015, the art crime team, once we received information that ISIL or ISIS was using looted cultural property from Syria and Iraq as a form, a viable form of terrorism financing. And we put auction houses and gallery owners on notice in 2015, and we basically told them that if you’re selling objects of cultural patrimony or cultural heritage with a dubious provenance, like a wink and a nod, you may be unwittingly or wittingly funding terrorism. While we never charged anybody with it, hopefully it was an eye-opener that when you’re getting into this world, it’s not a victimless crime. There are very real victims involved.

[13:07] And that’s one of the things that really is interesting about working our crime investigations. And I used to get ribbed by my friends who were not on the art crime team about

[13:18] where like the wine and cheese squad were raised and everything. But our subjects are far from it. We’re dealing with organized crime, gangs, terrorists. This is no joke. These are serious individuals and the stakes are high. And in the Gardner case, three or four people that we believe were involved in the heist were murdered a year after the Gardner case crime occurred. Yeah, I was just going to go back to that a little bit, as we said before, a little bit like the Lufthansa case. All of a sudden, everybody that was involved in the theft. Started dropping like flies. So tell the guys about that. That is really interesting.

[14:00] Yeah. So the two individuals that we believe went into the museum dressed as cops, just a week shy of the one-year anniversary, one of the guys was found dead in his apartment of an acute overdose of cocaine, intravenous. And his family admitted that he used Coke, but they said he was terrified of needles. He was scared of needles. So it really looked to be like a hotshot, an intentional overdose of cocaine. Two weeks later, the other guy who we believe went into the museum with him, his wife reported him missing. And a couple of weeks later, his bullet riddled body was recovered in the trunk of his car out by Logan Airport in East Boston. There was another member of that crew. These were all part of the same crew. This Carmelo Merlino, who was a Boston mobster, had an auto shop down in the Dorchester section of Boston. Another member of his crew, a guy named Bobby, six weeks after the heist, he brought in, he visited a jeweler in the downtown crossing jewelry district in Boston. He came in with this object and he unwrapped it. It was an eagle.

[15:03] It was the finial from the Napoleonic flag that was stolen in the Gardner heist. And he asked the jeweler, how much is this thing worth? And the jeweler looked at it and he said, it’s worth nothing. Because he immediately recognized it as one of the people that had been stolen six weeks earlier from the Gardner heist. And then a few months later, Bobby was stabbed to death and nearly decapitated on the front porch of his house. And the responding police saw that his house had been broken into and ransacked like his killers had been looking for something. There was a fourth guy, Jimmy, who bragged to his girlfriend a few months after the heist that he had a couple of pieces from the Gardner Museum hidden in his attic.

[15:47] And in February of 1990, 11 months after the heist, he was executed on his front porch in what the local police called a mob hit. So, yeah, these are the types of crimes that have a tendency to have a chilling effect on anybody who harbors any aspirations to come forward with information. Yeah, and we talked earlier a little bit about, like, the crime itself, and the statute of limitations is up on that, what you said, and the crime itself, but how we talked a little bit and explained to them about how this could be part of a RICO case. And you’ve got the murders and you’ve got the actual theft and whatever they did with the paintings, then maybe you could get over after a Bob boss as a Rico case. Tell the guys a little bit about doing that. Yeah.

[16:32] I’ve heard it so many times in more than two decades that I worked the case and people would say, geez, why don’t people come forward? They’re just paintings. There are so many times they’re just paintings. They’re like, yeah, they are, but there’s two things about that. Number one, there’s some dead bodies on these paintings, three or four, and that there’s no statute of limitations for murder. And so if you implicate yourself in the theft or you implicate yourself in possessing or transporting these paintings at any time, the fear is that you’re then implicating yourself in a homicide. And the other aspect of this, which I think has a chilling effect, is the fact that transportation of stolen property is one of the predicate acts for RICO, racketeering influence corrupt organization case. And RICO is basically, Gary, is basically an entire organization is corrupt. Yeah. There’s no legitimate purpose. It’s what we think about the mob and the

[17:27] FBI has taken down the mob in the past. So if you implicate yourself in stolen property and you’re part of organized crime, that’s one of the predicate acts for a RICO. And that’s basically life sentences. And so one of my goals in the years and years that I worked in this case was to try and convince people that you could come forward with information and the U S attorney’s offices, whether it’s up in Boston or new Haven or Philadelphia.

[17:58] Would be willing to figure out a way to get the paintings back with immunity from prosecution for a RICO case. Look, that’s a high hurdle. That’s a high hurdle to convince somebody that if you come forward, you’re not going to get charged and you’re eligible for millions of dollars in reward. That’s a tough bill to swallow, but it’s the truth. I’m retired from the FBI now. I can tell you that it was, it’s a, it was, and still is a bona fide offer. And that’s one of the goals that I’ve always tried to impress on anyone is the opportunity to become a millionaire without going to jail. There you go, Jeff. Can you, now you’re not with the Bureau anymore. Can you go out, if you could go out and find them and bring them in, could you collect that reward? I would certainly hope so.

[18:48] I can’t tell you how many of my friends thought that I had some of these paintings stashed in my basement. Waiting for retirement to go turn them in the next day. I think half the guys I worked with were expecting to see me pull into the parking lot of the FBI.

[19:01] Big package, but no. But yeah, I suppose I could. By this point, I can tell you the amount of my very being that I put into this case over two days. Yeah. I just would love to see these paintings go back just because they need to be back at the museum. That’s where they belong. Now, these crimes, they seem, You said there’s a lot of murders attached to this. They seem a little boring. Did you have any exciting moments trying to pop anybody or do any surveillances? I know we did a big surveillance of a bunch of junkies that were going around stealing from small museums around the Midwest. And we follow them here in Kansas City. And they would have been pretty exciting had we had a confrontation with them. Did you have any exciting moments in this? It actually was a fascinating case. And for the first, there’s the really boring aspects of this job and tedious aspects. And I would say that in my, two decades working this case, I probably did, I don’t know, 50, 60, 70 consent searches, searching in attics and basements and crawling through crawl spaces and just getting sweaty and covered in cobwebs. But the break in the case for me came in 2009 when one of the guys who was part of Merlino’s crew who was deceased, his niece came forward to me and told me that the paintings. Some of them had been hidden up in this guy’s hide at his house up in Maine. I went up to Maine with Anthony Amore, who’s the director of security for the Gardner Museum. We worked on this case together for years.

[20:29] And then we found that hide. And then we interviewed, right from there, we went and interviewed Guarenti. That’s the guy, Bobby Guarenti. We interviewed his widow and she broke down and admitted that he once showed her the paintings and she gave them to a guy down in Connecticut. And we identified that guy and we interviewed him. My name is Bobby Gentile. He’s a made member of the Philly Mob. He got straightened out with his crew back in the late 90s.

[20:54] And he refused to cooperate. And then that’s where we really just started getting, using a lot of ingenuity to try and break it. And an agent down in the New Haven office, a guy by the name of Jamie Lawton, he joined our team and we started working this case. And he had a source who knew Gentile, Bobby Gentile, and the source started buying drugs from Gentile. Ah, there we go. We ended up arresting Gentile and we did a search warrant at his house. And it was crazy. Like we recovered, I want to say seven handguns, loaded handguns lying all over the place. He had a pump action shotgun hanging by the front door. He had high explosives. We had to evacuate the house and call him the bomb squad. But the interesting thing was he had the March 19th, 1990 edition of the Boston Herald with headlines about the Gardner heist and tucked inside that newspaper was a handwritten list of all the stolen items. With what looked like their black market values. This is in the house of a guy who swore up and down that he’d never heard of the Gardner Museum. And we were able to figure out who wrote the list. It was written by none other than Al Monday, who’s the guy that did the first armed robbery of a museum, of a Rembrandt. And we interviewed him and he told us that he wrote that list for Bobby Gentile and his buddy up in Maine, Bobby Garanti, because they had a buyer for the paintings and they wanted to know what they were worth.

[22:24] So yeah, and then Gentile took 30 months.

[22:28] He wouldn’t cooperate. And while he was incarcerated, we turned two of his closest friends to becoming sources. And so when he got out of prison in February or April of 2014, they started talking to him and talked about the gardener and they said they might know somebody who’d want to buy him. That’s how we then introduced an undercover agent. Gentile was introduced to Tony, this undercover FBI agent. Over six months, they had long talks about selling the paintings. Unfortunately, before Gentile would sell the paintings, he wanted to do a drug deal first, which we couldn’t allow to happen. We can’t let drugs walk on the street. So we had to take it down. And although we’d seized all these guns from Gentile back in 2012, he told the sources the FBI didn’t get all of his guns. Because of that disturbing comment, one of the sources asked Gentile if he could buy a gun for him. And Gentile sold him a loaded 38. So we arrested him again. And he still refused to cooperate. I don’t respect what he did for a living or a lot of the things that he did, but you do have to respect his adherence to his values. However, misguided they may have been, he took the code of omerta, the code of silence to heart, and he took it to his grave. He died, I think, in 2021 after going to prison a second time.

[23:50] While we never got any paintings back, it was a tremendous ride, and I’m confident they will come back. It’s just going to be a question of when. Yeah, that kind of brings up the question that you hear people speculate. Did you ever run across this? Is there actually any rich old guys or an Arab sheik or somebody that buys stuff like this and then really keeps it and never shows it to anybody? Does that unicorn really exist? everybody wants that to be true i know virtually it’s not yeah there’s there’s never been a case of some wealthy what we call the doctor no theory some some reclusive billionaire with his underground lair filled with all the illicit stolen treasures of the world yeah that’s it’s never happened yeah i guess you never say never but but no look the majority statistically about three-quarters of everyone that collects art in this country does it for, and I assume it’s probably worldwide, does it for the investment potential. There’s a lot of money to be made in collecting art. It rarely, if ever, drops in value. So that’s why people collect art. If there’s somebody who has a particular piece that they want so badly that they’re going to commission its theft, it’s more the stuff of Hollywood. It could happen, but we’ve never seen that happen yet. Interesting.

[25:14] We did have one case here where we had a medical doctor and he had it on the wall of his house. And it was, I believe it was a Western artist named Remington that these junkies stole out of Omaha. But it was such a minor piece that he could show it to anybody and they wouldn’t. They would say, oh, that’s cool. You got a Remington.

[25:30] There’s plenty of those around. And he could afford a real deal Remington anyhow. So it wasn’t that big a deal. And that’s really what it comes down to is that art, high-end art does get stolen. It gets stolen quite often. The art market is about $60 billion, and the FBI, we estimated about $6 to $8 billion of that is illicit, whether it’s theft or fakes and forgeries. It’s a tremendous market, but it’s mostly second and third tier items.

[26:02] Really valuable, well-known pieces. They do get stolen, but that’s the easy part. The easy part is stealing it. The hard part is monetizing it. That’s why you very rarely see recidivism among art thieves, high-end art thieves, because you do it once, and now you’re stuck with the thing. It’s easier to steal something else. You got to go out and boost fur coats and stuff to make a living. Exactly. Do a jewelry store robbery down there and make a living. And that’s exactly the point. That’s why you’re seeing a sea change in terms of art thefts, museum thefts. The Louvre was a great example of that. Dresden green vault robbery where 100 million euros in gems were stolen back in 2019 yeah.

[26:45] Gems and jewelry, it can be broken down. It’s going to greatly diminish their value, but you can recut a gem. You can melt down the setting. You can monetize it for a greatly diminished value, but at least you can monetize it. You can’t cut up a Rembrandt into smaller pieces.

[27:02] It’s only valuable as a whole complete piece. Yeah. I’m just thinking about that. We got a couple of guys, Jerry Scalise and Art Rachel in Chicago, flew to London, robbed a really valuable piece, the Lady Churchill’s diamond or something, I don’t remember, but really valuable piece and mailed it to somebody on their way to the airport and then got caught when they got back to Chicago and brought back to London and did 14 years in England and they never gave up that piece and nobody could, it never appeared anywhere, but it was just cut up and they didn’t make hardly any money off of it. Yeah. Look, there’s a, there’s much more profitable ways to. Yeah. To make an illicit living than stealing high-end artwork, but it does still get stolen. And that’s one of the cruel ironies when you’re talking about art theft is if somebody has a $20,000 piece of jewelry or a very expensive watch, they’re most likely going to lock it up in a safe in their bedroom or something. But you have a $10 million piece of artwork, you probably got it on the mantle. You’ve got it over the fireplace or in the front foyer of your house and probably doesn’t have a passive alarm system protecting it or security screws to keep it from being taken off the wall because people want to show it off. Yeah. It’s way too enticing.

[28:24] Really? So, yes, you need to keep the word out there and keep this in people’s minds. And I’m sure the museum tries to do this in some ways in order, hopefully, that maybe somebody will say, oh. Yeah.

[28:38] I think I saw that somewhere in this news program or on this podcast.

[28:42] I’ll put some pictures on the podcast when I end up editing this. No, please do, Kerry. And that’s the thing. That’s the basis for the title of my book is it really is a fugitive investigation. And that’s how I work this case is fugitives and perfect fugitives because they’re not like their human counterparts. They’re not going to get tripped up on the silly things that we need to do as human beings, getting a driver’s license or whatnot. Yeah.

[29:09] And so that’s how I worked the case. The FBI was really, I was always impressed with the FBI’s support that they gave me on this investigation. We did billboard campaigns and social media and a lot of things to get these images out there to the public, hoping it might resonate with somebody. And that’s really my goal for this book. I felt it should be written. I felt it’s an important case. Certainly, it’s something that I wanted to write about. It’s something that’s very important to me.

[29:42] But it’s yet another attempt to apprehend these fugitives. And I’m hopeful that somebody, it might resonate with somebody. Somebody’s going to see something. And there’s so much disinformation and misinformation that’s out there in the media about this case. People are endlessly, all these armchair detectives, and I don’t say it in a deprecating way. Good for them. Work as hard as you can. But if you want to work this case from your armchair, great. but you should be going off accurate information because there’s a lot of bad information that’s out there on the internet. And if you want to help out, if you want to collect that $10 million reward, great, but you should be going off the most accurate factual information that’s available. Yeah. And you probably ought to go down to the deep seamy underbelly of Philadelphia or Boston or somewhere and get involved with a mob and then work your way up and make different cocaine deals and everything. And eventually you might be trusted enough that some might say, oh yeah, I’ve got those in this basement. I would suggest there’s better hobbies.

[30:47] That could be hazardous to your health. I wouldn’t recommend it. Yes, it could. All right. Jeffrey Kelly, the book is 13 Perfect Tuesdays. Those are the paintings that were stolen that you’ll see on the podcast on the YouTube channel. The true story of the mob, murder, and the world’s largest art heist. Jeffrey, thanks so much for coming on to tell us about this. Thanks, Gary. Thanks for having me.

In this episode of Gangland Wire, Host retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins dives into the shadowy intersection of organized gambling and college athletics through the story of Frank “Lefty” Rosenthal.  During the early 1960s, Rosenthal built his reputation by identifying weaknesses in sports systems, particularly among vulnerable college athletes. He met one who could not be bought, Mickey Bruce of Oregon. At the center of this story is a little-known but pivotal attempt at a fix involving the Oregon Ducks. Rosenthal and his associate, David Budin, believed they had found an opening, but they ran headlong into the integrity of Oregon halfback Mickey Bruce. Bruce flatly refused the bribe, setting off a chain reaction that would help expose a much wider pattern of corruption in college sports.   I break down how this wasn’t an isolated incident but part of a nationwide effort by gamblers to influence outcomes and exploit young athletes. The episode explores the mechanics of organized gambling, attempts to fix games, and why college sports became such an attractive target for mob-connected bookmakers.

The story reaches a dramatic turning point during U.S. Senate hearings on gambling in college athletics, where Mickey Bruce publicly identified Lefty Rosenthal as one of the men who tried to corrupt him. It’s a rare moment in mob history—one where a gambler is named in open testimony by a player who refused to bend.   From there, I trace Rosenthal’s continued rise in the gambling world, from Miami to Las Vegas, where he would help shape modern sports betting while repeatedly managing to stay one step ahead of serious legal consequences. Rosenthal’s story raises enduring questions about accountability, the limits of law enforcement, and why some figures seem untouchable.

I close the episode by reflecting on Rosenthal’s legacy—and on Mickey Bruce’s quiet heroism.

 

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0:03 The Story Begins

4:14 The Bribe Attempt

7:58 The Aftermath of Scandal

12:26 The Rise of Lefty

14:34 College Sports and Corruption

18:58 The Online Gambling Boom

22:26 The Fall of Adrian McPherson

24:24 Mickey Bruce’s Legacy

[0:00] Hey, hey, all you wiretappers, back here in the studio of Gangland Wire. This is Gary Jenkins, a retired Kansas City Police Intelligence Unit detective. I worked a mob for about 14 years, and now I tell some mob stories, as many as I can find. And we all know Lefty Rosenthal. We all know Robert De Niro played him as Ace Rothstein in the film movie Casino. And that movie, part of the reason it was so good that Nicholas Pelleggi, the screenwriter, and wrote the book, was able to spend hours and hours interviewing Lefty Rosenthal in real life. He had gone to Florida by then and it seemed like the mob wasn’t after him anymore. They had one attempted bombing of him, if you remember.

[0:41] So it was a really good movie. There’s really good depiction of that era and that system that they had going out there. Let’s go back on Lefty Rosenthal’s history to a guy that he couldn’t corrupt. Lefty Rosenthal thought he could corrupt anybody, but he found a guy that he couldn’t corrupt. It was really one of his early cases where law enforcement, the FBI, and other state law enforcement agencies figured out Lefty Rosenthal was somebody, and he was a pretty big gambler. He was a nationwide gambler. In 1960, the Oregon Ducks had a pretty good team. What a name, the Oregon Ducks. They had a man named Dave Grayson and the quarterback with Dave Gross in the backfield. They had a 5’3 All-American receiver named Cleveland Jones. What a name, Cleveland Jones. They went 7-2-1. They lost to Michigan, and they also lost to eventual Rose Bowl champ Washington. But this was good enough to gain a Liberty Bowl invite to play Penn State. Oregon lost the bowl and played in two feet of snow and freezing temperatures in Philadelphia that year.

[1:50] But the biggest news of the season was made during their trip to Ann Arbor to play Michigan. They had this potential All-American player named Mickey Bruce, who really was obscure compared to especially this Dave Gross or this Cleveland Jones, who was an unusual player. He was a president of his fraternity. He was a former Little League World Series star. He was the son of an attorney. He was a team captain. He played halfback and defensive back. And there was two professional gamblers came to Ann Arbor that year and they didn’t know much about this guy, but they did know, one of them’s name was Budin, David Budin, and the other one was Frank Lefty Rosenthal. They didn’t know much about Mickey Bruce, but they had a connection to him. A guy who played for the Oregon State basketball team named Jimmy Granada and knew Boudin from when they were little kids growing up on the basketball courts in New York City. Now, Granada told Mickey that he had two friends staying at the team hotel and they needed tickets. This time, players could then were given tickets and they could turn around and sell them to people. Boudin ended up finding him and introduced himself and said he was Jimmy Granada’s friend and invited Mickey up to the room and said, I’m the guy that needs a couple of tickets.

[3:15] Mickey was a little bit hesitant, but didn’t know this guy. He’s probably got a New York accent, probably slick, more than likely. He hesitated at first and booted and said, just take a few minutes. I just want to get you to go and get those tickets. And so he goes him, so he follows him into the room and he finds Lefty Rosenthal waiting there, who he doesn’t know and won’t even have any idea who he is till much later. So they chatted a little bit about the game as people will and ask him questions about the team. And Rosenthal mentioned that Oregon was a six-point underdog. He said, do you don’t think a player could be bribed? Mickey said, I suppose they could. Buden then cut in. He said, Mickey, he said, what do you think it would cost to ensure that Michigan won by at least eight points? Mickey plays along. He says, you’re the big-time gamblers. You should know. So Buden said, about $5,000. And Mickey said, that’s probably fine.

[4:14] Mickey said, let me check into this. And he said, I’m late for a team meeting and I got to get going. So they made plans to meet later on about 9 p.m. Mickey was no fool or small town rube. His father had been a Chicago attorney and he now practice in El Cajon, California.

[4:31] He raced to catch up with his teammates and told an assistant coach about the bribe who told the athletic director, who then called in the Michigan State Police, who called in the FBI. And they told Mickey to go ahead and show up at 9 p.m. at the meeting in the hotel room. They don’t want to apprehend Buden and Rosenthal right now. They want to get some more information and really get a real solid bribery attempt out of them. So acting on the advice of these cops, Mickey goes back to the hotel room that evening.

[5:00] Buden and Rosenthal start talking to him. And so they gave him tips about how to carry out this scheme without attracting any attention. Buden and Rosenthal say, we’ll give you an extra $5,000 and you can get the quarterback, Dave Gross, to go along with this scheme. He said, Mickey, you just need to let some pass receivers get behind you once in a while and let them run up the score a little bit. And you’re not going to win anyhow, more than likely. Get the quarterback to call a few wrong plays nobody really ever noticed. And he said, I’ll give you each $5,000 after the game if you’ll do that. He also offered Mickey $100 a week just to call him at his house down in Florida and update him about the health of Oregon’s team before weekly betting lines were released makes you wonder how many guys did Rosenthal have calling him to update him on injuries and everything on different college teams and professional too. Because I know from doing a story before that Ocardo and a lot of the Chicago gangsters really valued Rosenthal’s tips on making their football bets. He seemed to have some kind of an inside track.

[6:08] As he got ready to leave, Mickey said, oh, wait a minute. I gave you those tickets. You got to pay me, which were only worth about three bucks each. And so Lefty gave him 50 bucks for the two tickets. Mickey would remember later that he had to roll $100 bills in his pocket, which is typical for a high-flyer, high-rolling kind of a dude like that, have a big roll of cash in your pocket. And then you reach down in, peel some off so everybody can see how much money you got in your pocket. Rosenthal said, hey, I got to leave tonight, but see my friend Buden in the morning, David Buden, and he’ll give you the money. Mickey agreed, went back to his room. The next morning, while eating breakfast with his teammates, he sees a state trooper leading Buden out of the hotel in handcuffs, and then missed Lefty Rosenthal, who, as he had told them the night before, the Lefty was going to be leaving, and they had made a good bribery attempt. I don’t know what the police were waiting on. They were trying to make an even better case or something. I guess they probably They wanted him to go back in and catch them all together with the money. But then lefty left, and they went ahead and pulled the trigger early. You never know how these things work out exactly and what was at play. During the game, Mickey, I tell you what, Mickey played his heart out. He got an interception for a touchdown. It didn’t make any difference. Michigan won easily, 21 to nothing, and easily covered the six-point spread.

[7:28] A player will later be asked about this, and part of the reason was he said the coach had called a late-night team meeting and told them about this bribery attempt and asked them if any of them had been approached. Of course, everybody said no. Whether they had or not, they’re going to say no. But this player said it really shook us. We just had no rhythm. We just couldn’t get together for that game.

[7:50] Buden, when he was arrested, it turns out he was arrested for registering at a hotel under a fake name. He ends up paying some little fine and leaving town.

[7:58] Lefty was long gone the next day. It’s possible that Rosenthal and Buden knew that just attempting this bribe might have the negative impact on Oregon’s chances against the spread anyhow. All we know for sure is they got off scot-free in the end, and Buden paid a $100 fine or whatever. Lefty, but he did get exposed because Mickey Bruce, he didn’t have any idea of what he was getting drawn into, but it became a nationwide scandal. Basketball and football games, college games were being influenced on a wide scale by these gambling interests and Lefty Rosenthal was right in the middle of it all. Part of the McClellan committee, Senator McClellan of Arkansas convened his select committee just to investigate gambling and college athletics later that year. Because of this Michigan interaction with Lefty and college players and attempted bribery, they brought Mickey Bruce in. September the 8th, 1961, there’s a Senate hearing witness table. And sitting at that table is Mickey Bruce at one side and Frank Lefty Rosenthal at the other. And this was the same Frank he’d met at this hotel room. And he literally fingered Rosenthal as one of the men who attempted to bribe him. That photo that I’ve got in there, if you’re on YouTube, Rosenthal fled the fifth, of course.

[9:27] Committee here, meetings like that, really what they’re good for is to stir law enforcement and bring people out and bring out and get the public riled up against organized crime. That’s what McClellan’s committee was really good for. They had several of those committees that finally got local authorities and the FBI to start looking at organized crime. And in particular, this is the mother’s milk of organized crime by now is gambling. And college sports gambling was the thing at the time. There was some pro teams going on, but it didn’t have near the action going down on it that the college teams had. There was a lot more interest in college and a lot more college games every week. Later on the next year, Wayne County, Michigan District Attorney’s Office wanted Mickey Bruce to come back to Detroit and swear out a complaint against the people that tried to bribe him and name him and give statements and everything. Bruce, by then, he didn’t really want to mess with it. He was playing football. He had his fraternity work. He had to keep his grades up because he was going to law school.

[10:32] But they had a game against Ohio State that November. Michigan authorities thought, just come in and see us when you’re here. But he was out for the season by then. He had separated his shoulder, and he never really played again when they were playing Stanford earlier that year. He wasn’t going to go back to Michigan. His coaches tried to get him to cooperate, but he said, I’m done with the whole matter. In an interview, he said, as far as I’m concerned, this whole thing should have been dead a month ago after it happened. He conferred with his father, and they both said they can’t really make him do that.

[11:05] He said, I didn’t have time to go. I’ve got all these school activities that I’m doing, and I just don’t want to go. And he said, the Michigan police botched this thing from the start. They should have stuck around, and they should have got Rosenthal before they left town. There were several things they should have done, and it was a poorly run investigation that probably wasn’t going to succeed anyhow. And he said it had been over a year, and he said, I don’t really remember exactly what happened. I understand all that, and he could have helped him make a case, but there’s an obscure a paragraph in Lefty Rosenthal’s FBI file. And it might explain a little more about why Mickey Bruce didn’t testify in a criminal trial against Lefty. It already testified and pointed him out in the McClellan hearing. But right after that, his mother received a telephone call in her home in El Cajon, California. Now, there’s some, it says name redacted, but you can easily fill in the name. 1961, September 1961, name redacted, El Cajon, received a phone call from an unidentified male asking if, name redacted, can you fill in, Mickey Bruce, name redacted, answered in the negative, at which time this person uttered an oath and added, you’re going to get it, and so is he. I think it’s pretty easy to fill in the names of Mickey Bruce and his mother easily.

[12:26] Bruce stayed home Oregon went to Columbus Lost to the Buckeyes again Wayne County DA Dropped any cases Against Buden and Rosenthal For lack of evidence Lefty will continue During these years To run his sports book Out of Florida He’ll continue Traveling around the country And making contact With people in the College sports world Trying to bribe players And coaches And gather information And.

[12:50] Cops in Miami were watching Lefty by then, 1960, New Year’s Eve. Police Chief Martin Dardis of Miami knocked on Rosenthal’s door with a group of guys and found him in his bedroom in his pajamas. He had a telephone in one hand and a small black book in the other. Dardis took the phone away from him and started answering the calls, and they were from bettors all around the country. He remembered that there was one guy named Amos who wanted to place a bet on a football game on New Year’s Day. And Dardis handed the phone to Rosenthal who told the guy that was calling in says you’re talking to a cop you stupid SOB.

[13:28] During that raid, Rosenthal complained he’d paid $500 to keep local police from harassing his bookmaking operations. He said, you guys must be kidding.

[13:37] Evidently, you didn’t get your piece. About a year later, February 1962, after the Senate hearings, detective knocked on his door again in Miami. He came to the door sporting dapper attire, which he was a really dapper dresser, and he had painted fingernails, according to a newspaper account. He said, I’ve been expecting you.

[13:58] The detectives arrested Rosenthal, not for bribing Mickey Bruce, but he and his friend Buden faced charges in North Carolina for offering $500 to Ray Paprocki, a basketball player at NYU, and wanted to shave points in a 1960 NCAA tournament against West Virginia. During this time, authorities had uncovered a nationwide network of fixtures who conspired to influence hundreds of college basketball games over a five-year period. In the end, 37 players from 22 schools were arrested on charges relating to

[14:31] port shaving. Man, that’s, boy, that was huge. We’ve got these guys going down now periodically that are getting involved because of the apps. And we’re going to get a little more into that. This gambling thing and college athletics especially, but even pro athletics. It’s a corrupting force, guys. I know a lot of you like to bet on games, but it really, there’s a real potential for corrupting the game. And in the end, if they keep it up and people keep corrupting these games, it’s just going to be like wrestling. You’ll just, somebody will control who’s going to win and who’s going to lose in every contest. That’s what these gamblers would like to get, and they’d make all the money.

[15:08] Rosenthal pleaded no contest. He got a $6,000 fine for trying to fix this NYU-West Virginia game. He claimed that David Buden gave up his name and that he said later on, trying to clear himself of that, that that wasn’t really me. David Buden did it, and he would have given up his mother’s stay away from what he had to face. That was when the Nevada Gaming Control Board was after him.

[15:33] In 1967, Rosenthal, under the watch of the Chicago Outfit, started acting like his outfit bosses and bring outfit tactics down to Miami. He started intimidating rival bookies and others in Miami who incurred his wrath. He ordered bombings of the territory. I interviewed the son of a CIA operative named, his father’s name was Ricardo Monkey Morales. Look back and see if you can find that interview of the son of Monkey Morales. I think Monkey Morales was probably in the title. And he told us about his father’s relationship with Rosenthal. He told him that Lefty had told his dad that he represented organized crime out of Chicago. And he said that Morales said that Rosenthal paid him. He said that Rosenthal paid Monkey Morales to blow up Alfie’s newsstand with a bookie joint in the back. He also had him, they had him blow up a car and a boat owned by a well-known jewelry thief that the mob was pressuring to do some burglaries for them. He also had him explode a bomb. I remember this, explode a bomb in the front yard of a Miami police officer trying to show his power. I guess this guy was messing with him or something, trying to tell everybody he was connected to the outfit and don’t mess with me.

[16:50] Morales would also claim that he’d witnessed Rosenthal meeting with Tony Splatron in Miami in 1967.

[16:58] 1970s, he goes to Las Vegas at the request of the outfit, which we all know. We’ll go back over it a little bit. Even legitimate gambling people will say he invented the sportsbook industry in Las Vegas. They didn’t really do that before. And Sports Illustrated once called him the greatest living expert on sports gambling. He’ll die in 2008 of natural causes down in Florida after all the skimming investigation went down and people started going to grand juries and being indicted and going to trials and everything. All the mobsters did. Several people in Las Vegas did. A guy out of the Tropicanda who was Kansas City’s man, Joe Augusto, and a guy named Carl Thomas who worked at both casinos and helping in skimming and several other guys that worked in the casino business. But guess who never was indicted? And guess who never even was called in for an interview? And guess who just hid out? Lefty Rosenthal. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it? Jane Ann Morrison of the Las Vegas Review-Journal. Finally, they get an FBI agent to confirm to her that he was a top echelon informant during all this time. They try to blow him up in his Cadillac, another famous attempted mob hit. A lot of people speculate on that. They’ll always say it was Kansas City because they thought he was an informant all along. and never liked him and never trust him because he really, he brought all the heat down out in Las Vegas. Now, the heat was coming anyhow, but he maybe brought it a little bit quicker.

[18:24] There’s a former federal prosecutor out of Las Vegas that once said, it’s been said you should never speak ill of the dead, but there are exceptions to the rule, and Frank Rosenthal is one of those exceptions. He is an awful human being.

[18:38] Dave Budin, the guy who first approached Mickey Bruce, Yes. Continues in the sportsbook game and draws his son Steve into it. And by the 1990s, the online betting industry has taken over from your neighborhood bookie and a mob just running everything. It’s a multi-billion dollar thorn in the side of the U.S. authorities.

[18:59] 1998, federal prosecutors indicted Miami gambler David Buden, same man that tried to bribe Mickey Bruce, and indicted Buden’s son for running something called SDB Global.

[19:13] Which later became SBG. Federal authorities prosecuted Boudin under a federal anti-gambling statute because SDB Global was incorporated in Costa Rica, but it was based in Miami. Pleaded guilty and got a $750,000 fine. In Kansas City, during those same years, the son of the feared mafia capo, if you will, Willie the Rat Comisano, Willie Comisano Jr., They headed up a group of bookies that contained the names and sons and other extended relatives of many Kansas City Mafia members out of the 50s and 60s. And they were using the internet and dealing with either SDB Global or one of the other sports betting sites that sprung up in Costa Rica because they were all over the place. Budins were high flyers in this doing business out of Costa Rica. And they were making a lot of money, a lot of money. In 2004, SBG comes to the attention of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. They sent an undercover in, and they asked an SBG operator why the company required customers to call before wiring each new deposit. And he got him on tape to say, because we change the names in the countries of the middlemen all the time. The agent suggested that the process made it uneasy, and the employee of SBG said, you don’t have to worry about it. Lots of people do it.

[20:35] Well, during this investigation, they also found there was a Florida State star quarterback named Adrian McPherson was placing bets on games that he was playing in and ends up getting dismissed from the Florida State Seminoles football team. He was a rising star, a rising young star quarterback. In the investigation, they learned he’d already lost $8,000 to a local bookie who’d cut him off. He was giving him, extending him credit. Guy owed him $8,000 and he cut him off. So that’s when he turned to online SBG sites. Now, you have to pay up front. So he was getting some money to gamble somehow, and he tried to hide this activity by using a roommate, but a review of his phone records showed several calls to STB, and one time was, like, just before, there were, like, two in a row. And that’s how they were, like, trying to hide it and then pass it off to make it look like there was somebody else making the bet. He eventually gets arrested. He pleads to lesser charges. But one of those charges was check forgery. And when a gambler starts losing, many times they’ll turn to those white-collar crimes like check forgery, embezzlement. They’ll start stealing from their work, shoplifting, drug dealing. They can do anything like a junkie, man. They’ll do anything to keep gambling.

[21:52] I once knew a guy said he couldn’t even walk into a casino because he just starts getting a rush. He just can’t stay away from the machines once he walks in. So he totally has to stay out. Adrian McPherson, he was also an all-star baseball player. Even though he is kicked out of college ball for betting on his own team, he then gets drafted. The New Orleans Saints in 2005 draft him. They want him as their starting quarterback. But they also drafted a guy named Drew Brees, who ended up leading him to the Super Bowl in 2006.

[22:27] Now, later in that season or during that season, the Tennessee Titan mascot will accidentally hit McPherson with a golf cart. He sues him for several million dollars. The following year, he does this. He’s been injured by this golf cart. I don’t know if it wasn’t a career injury, obviously, but they also the gambling thing. And the following year, he appears with the Grand Rapid Rampage AFL team. Then he goes to a Canadian team. Then he plays on a variety of arena football teams, a different one every year almost. And finally, in 2018, the Jacksonville Sharks, which is an arena team, releases him. His gambling led him to a free fall into obscurity. He was on his way up to life-changing generational wealth, and the gambling just got him.

[23:17] Let’s go back a minute, you know, all these, I’ll be telling all these stories about these low rents and degenerate gamblers. Let’s go back to the incorruptible Mickey Bruce. He was injured during 1961 during his senior year. His last game was in 1961 against Stanford. His three seasons of Oregon, he rushed 29 times for 128 yards. At one touchdown, he caught 10 passes for 113 yards and three touchdowns. Defensively, he intercepted six passes in the last season, returned six punts for an 11-yard average. He ends up being drafted in the 24th round of the 1962 AFL draft by the Oakland Raiders, but he never pursued a professional football career. Instead, he followed his father’s footsteps. He went to law school and became a lawyer out in California.

[24:08] Michael J. Bruce, his story goes really beyond the gridiron. He’s on that very short list of individuals who have implicated gangsters, pointed them out in court, and survived. And he prospered from then on under

[24:20] his own name. He didn’t go in witness protection or anything like that. He might not have agreed to prosecute Lefty going back to Michigan for that other case, but he did stand up and point at Lefty Rosenthal and say, he’s the one that tried to bribe me. 1981, Mickey Bruce will get the Leo Harris Award. Presented to alumni, alumnus Letterman, who have been out of college for 20 years and have demonstrated continuous service and leadership to the university. Some of the other, Alberto Salazar went to Oregon. He got it. A guy named Dan Fouts, I know that name, Johnny Robinson, Bill Dellinger.

[25:02] So guys, it’s much better to get a Lifetime Achievement Award for doing good than to get a car bomb or to die in obscurity. So thanks, guys. That’s the story of Lefty Rosenthal and his earlier years before the skimming and really the story of a tribute to Mickey Bruce, a guy that stood up and did the right thing when it needed to be done. Thanks, guys. And don’t forget, stand up and go to your computer and order one of my books online or rent one of my movies or look at my website and see what you like there. Make a donation, if you will. I got expenses. Don’t usually ask for. I got ads. They just cover some things and then other things. Some of these FOIA things cost a lot of money and got a few expenses. Anyhow, so thanks a lot, guys. But mostly, I appreciate your loyalty and all the comments that you make on my YouTube channel and on the Gangland Wire podcast group. It’s inspiring. It really, truly is inspiring. It keeps me coming back. Thanks, guys.