Drowned in Sound

Did Sean ask a member of the House of Lords whether the House of Lords should even exist? No. Did he get into proportional representation? Also no...

Helena Wadia returns to co-host, and rather than a straight interview this is proper yap of an episode, with Sean thinking out loud about everything that didn't make it into last week's conversation with Lord Kevin Brennan on the fan-led review of live music, and why, when you've got fifty recommendations and about an hour, you have to choose your battles.

They get into why Andy Burnham becoming Prime Minister changed the shape of the conversation, and what it means that he's a shareholder in Music Venue Properties. They compare how differently society treats football fandom versus music fandom, from workplace leniency during the World Cup to Germany's cultural vouchers, and ask why a nighttime economy built around music doesn't get the same institutional understanding.

Along the way: Bill Drummond's old campaign for a "no music day", Paris Hilton's unlikely transformation into a genuine political force, and a proper, honest conversation about how they each actually prep for an interview, what questions to ask first, how much to assume the listener already knows, and why every job now seems to come with the shadow of "but will it clip."

The Drowned in Sound podcast is presented in partnership with Qobuz, the pioneering high-quality music streaming and download platform for music enthusiasts and audiophiles. Each week we curate playlists on Qobuz, featuring our favourite records, artists, and the themes we explore on the show.

This week, Sean and Helena share their midyear playlists. Sean's has got Massive Attack and Tom Waits, Sofia Isella, PVA, and Art School Girlfriend on it. Helena's has Matt Berninger's strange, brilliant new solo single 'Martini Me Fatso', Naomi In Blue's debut, and Olivia Rodrigo's new record.

Visit https://drownedinsound.org/playlists/ to discover new music in rich Hi-Res lossless quality and start your 30-day free trial of Qobuz at https://qobuz.com/dis.

 

Referenced In This Episode

Last week's conversation with Lord Kevin Brennan on the fan-led review: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/what-can-music-fans-expect-from-the-pm-andy-burnham/id1037405920?i=1000778324142, on YouTube: https://youtu.be/IFhUww0DTvs, or wherever you get your podcasts: http://drownedinsound.org/podcasts

Read Mark Davyd on Andy Burnham's stake in Music Venue Properties and a night out in Atherton: https://markdavyd.substack.com/p/a-night-out-in-atherton

Naomi In Blue's debut single 'Naive': https://naomiinblue.bandcamp.com/

Matt Berninger's new single 'Martini Me Fatso': https://stereogum.com/2505525/matt-berninger-martini-me-fatso/music

'Boots on the Ground', Massive Attack featuring Tom Waits: https://massiveattack.bandcamp.com/album/boots-on-the-ground

Bill Drummond's No Music Day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Music_Day

Galaxy Brain: How Short-Form Clips Took Over the Internet: https://podcasts.apple.com/am/podcast/galaxy-brain/id1378618386

John Graham, the world's first Minister for Music (and Transport), NSW Australia: https://www.nsw.gov.au/nsw-government/ministers/minister-for-transport-arts-music-and-night-time-economy

John Graham on the Sydney Opera House noise changes, "no longer will noise levels be dictated by the bedtimes of the residents": https://www.nsw.gov.au/departments-and-agencies/dciths/ministerial-media-releases/changes-coming-to-sydney-opera

Hanna Kahlert on "every job is clips now": https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-your-favourite-bands-fans-might-not-be-real/id1037405920?i=1000775834659

Art School Girlfriend on the podcast earlier this year: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-does-electronic-music-sound-like-shoegaze-art-school/id1037405920?i=1000754413709

Ella from PVA on the podcast earlier this year: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-hope-over-fear-trumps-no-music-on-a-dead-planet/id1037405920?i=1000747892636

Helena Wadia also co-hosts the Media Storm podcast: https://mediastormpodcast.com/about-us/

This episode was recorded at The Shure Experience Centre, London.

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Produced and edited by Sean Adams.

00:00:00 - Cold open: the things we never thought we'd cover 00:00:16 - Welcome back, Helena 00:00:41 - Recapping the Lord Brennan interview 00:09:17 - Qobuz and the midyear playlists 00:12:10 - Bill Drummond's No Music Day 00:16:33 - What if music was treated like football 00:19:39 - Andy Burnham's DJ sets and Paris Hilton 00:26:42 - How we actually prep for an interview 00:34:32 - Idea: politicians' favourite bands on election flyers 00:39:00 - Wrap up and thanks to Lord Brennan

Four thousand, one hundred and forty four music fans responded to a single Parliamentary survey, more than any committee inquiry has recorded before. What they said, over and over, is that going to a gig isn't a transaction like any other, it's closer to a communal, sometimes quasi-religious experience, and that's the starting point for this week's conversation.

In this week's episode, Sean talks to Lord Kevin Brennan about the fan-led review of live and electronic music, the report he was commissioned to lead by the Culture, Media and Sport Committee. We discuss what's happened since it was published, get his reaction to the Starmer government's response, and what we can hope under new our music-loving prime minister Andy Burnham.

Kevin Brennan was the Labour MP for Cardiff West for twenty three years, from 2001 until he stood down at the last election, before being appointed to the House of Lords as Lord Brennan of Canton. While in the Commons he chaired the CMS committee's inquiry into the economics of music streaming and introduced what became known as the Brennan Bill, a private member's bill that never made it into law but helped push the government towards hosting streaming remuneration talks through the Intellectual Property Office.

However, Brennan is also a musician himself. He was a founding member of MP4, the cross-party band of sitting MPs that has raised over a million pounds for charity (Andy Burnham, now Prime Minister, has played live with them), and in 2021 he became the first sitting MP to release a solo album, The Clown and the Cigarette Girl, produced by Gerry Diver with Glen Matlock of the Sex Pistols on bass. He's currently recording a follow up.

The conversation covers the origins of the fan-led review, which built on last year's Music Fans Voice Survey (8,108 respondents), and the resulting Fans' Charter, built around seven "essentials of live": celebration, ticketing, grassroots, safety, accessibility, transport and voice.

They also talk about Andy Burnham's own history as a shareholder in Music Venue Properties, which has taken venues including The Snug in Atherton into community ownership. And yes, we discuss where AI and copyright fit into all of this.

The Drowned in Sound podcast is presented in partnership with Qobuz, the pioneering high-quality music streaming and download platform for music enthusiasts and audiophiles. Each week we curate playlists on Qobuz, featuring our favourite records, artists, and the themes we explore on the show.

Visit https://drownedinsound.org/playlists/ to discover new music in rich Hi-Res lossless quality and start your 30-day free trial of Qobuz at https://qobuz.com/dis.

 

Referenced In This Episode

The fan-led review of live and electronic music and the government's response: https://committees.parliament.uk/work/9161/fanled-review-of-music/publications

The government's "Turn It Up: Our Plan for Music": https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/turn-it-up-our-plan-for-music/turn-it-up-our-plan-for-music

Michael Dugher appointment as Music Champion: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/michael-dugher-appointed-as-music-champion

Find out more about the FanFair Alliance's campaign against ticket touting: http://fanfairalliance.org

Read Mark Davyd on Andy Burnham's stake in Music Venue Properties and a night out in Atherton: https://markdavyd.substack.com/p/a-night-out-in-atherton

Read more on Suzanne Ashman and the £500m Sovereign AI Fund: https://bmmagazine.co.uk/news/suzanne-ashman-sovereign-ai-fund-managing-partner/

Read Victoria Derbyshire's column on Oasis ticket prices: https://inews.co.uk/opinion/furious-oasis-tickets-dont-know-who-angry-3258086

Listen to Kevin Brennan's album, The Clown and the Cigarette Girl, on Qobuz: https://open.qobuz.com/album/v097ngg6ijjkc, or on Bandcamp: https://kevinbrennanmusic.bandcamp.com/album/the-clown-the-cigarette-girl

Sign up to the DiS newsletter: http://drownedinsound.org

There's a marketing agency that will build your band a small army of fan accounts for about a dollar per thousand views. They post the clips, they seed the captions, sometimes they write the comments underneath too. Until a Substack essay by the musician Eliza McLamb and a run of stories in Wired, New York Magazine and The Verge this May, most of us assumed - unlike MAGA and Reform supporters - the people posting about our favourite artists actually liked them.

In this week's episode, recorded at the Shure Experience Centre in London, Sean is joined by returning guest Hanna Kahlert for a properly wide ranging mid-year check-in on where the music industry actually stands. It covers radio, playlists, spatial audio, AI, third spaces, and at some length, what's really behind the clipping campaigns turning fan accounts into an ad product.

Hanna Kahlert is a senior social analyst at MIDiA Research, where she heads up the company's coverage on social media, cross-entertainment audience behaviour, the creator economy, and the platforms all of it lives on. She was our guest before Christmas talking about the year in tech, which makes her one of a very short list of returning guests on this podcast.

However, MIDiA isn't her only hat. Hanna also mentors at Abbey Road Red, the studio's startup incubator, where she's currently working with founders building spatial audio for VR worlds and, more usefully for touring musicians, something like an Airbnb for recording studios.

The conversation moves through Apple's rumoured smart glasses, why an AR filter over a headline slot might one day save a band three trucks of touring production, and why last year's poolside advert for Meta's camera glasses, endorsed awkwardly by Peggy Gou, has aged badly.

This conversation also gets into how little has actually changed about the mechanics of a live show since Sean was a teenager, wireless guitars aside, and why a crowd full of phones sometimes means an artist is genuinely growing an audience and sometimes just means nobody real is in the room.

The bulk of the episode is about the clipping economy: the marketing model behind fan accounts that turn out not to be run by fans at all. Sean and Hanna work through the Billboard interview with Chaotic Good that started it, Eliza McLamb's essay Fake Fans, and what it meant when that essay led to a month of think pieces asking whether the band Geese were, in the discourse's own phrase, an industry plant psyop. Hanna's own MIDiA research covers the same ground, and it's linked below.

It also gets into third spaces, pubs, youth clubs, and Geoff Barrow's argument that five hundred million pounds would be better spent reopening youth clubs than almost anything else the industry could fund. It ends on why proper research, done slowly, might matter more to a working musician right now than any dashboard full of streaming data.

The Drowned in Sound podcast is presented in partnership with Qobuz, the pioneering high-quality music streaming and download platform for music enthusiasts and audiophiles. Each week we curate playlists on Qobuz, featuring our favourite records, artists, and the themes we explore on the show.

Visit https://drownedinsound.org/playlists/ to discover new music in rich Hi-Res lossless quality and start your 30-day free trial of Qobuz at https://qobuz.com/dis.

Edited by: tell.studio (Phil, Louisa, Owen, Matt)

Hanna Kahlert / MIDiA Research
https://www.midiaresearch.com/analyst/hanna-kahlert

Further reading
MIDiA Research: Clipping campaigns, marketing's next move in a fragmented attention economy
Eliza McLamb: Fake Fans
Dazed: If Geese are a psy-op, so is everything else
Eliza Hatch: Cheer Up Luv

Recorded at The Shure Experience Centre, London.

Sign up to the DiS newsletter: http://drownedinsound.org

Spotify paid Joe Rogan over $200 million for his podcast. Then, in 2024, they did it again. Tom Gray has spent the last five years thinking about what that kind of money could do for songwriters instead and his answer at the end of this episode is fascinating.

In this week's episode, DiS founder Sean Adams is back with Tom Gray for the second part of a two-part conversation. Part 1 was about the music and the person. This one is about the fight: where the #BrokenRecord campaign came from, how it works, what it has won, and where it keeps hitting walls.

Tom Gray is a Mercury Prize-winning songwriter and founding member of Gomez. Since 2020 he has been the founder of the Broken Record campaign, which began as a Twitter thread during the first lockdown and grew into one of the most significant efforts to change how songwriters and performing artists are paid in the streaming era. He has been Chair of The Ivors Academy since 2022 and stood as a Labour candidate for Brighton Pavilion in the 2024 general election.

The episode opens with the origin of Broken Record: a tweet, a discovery that UK music copyright law was last substantially reformed in 1988, and the realisation that performing artists have no right to the equitable remuneration that has applied to radio play since the 1930s, because streaming platforms treat a stream as a sale rather than a broadcast. Tom explains how the (Kevin) Brennan Bill came together, including the ten-minute phone call in which it was named, and why the word "remuneration" nearly derailed the whole thing.

From there it goes into Labour's relationship with tech, Daniel Ek's visit to Downing Street, the AI consultation process that Tom describes as a failure, and what it feels like to run for Parliament when you have spent four years arguing with the government about copyright law. The metadata problem gets a sharp section of its own: no regulation currently requires streaming platforms to record songwriter information at the point of upload, which creates conditions for fraud and erases the attribution chain entirely. And there is a significant exchange on Spotify's AI remixing feature, Nick Clegg's position at Meta, and what Tom calls "the copyright gang" and "the tech gang" operating in direct opposition inside Whitehall.

The episode also gets into the EU Copyright Directive and why the UK failed to implement it, the CMA's 2022 music streaming market study, and what Chicago School economics has to do with how governments think about music monopolies.

But the last twenty minutes are about hope. The per diem proposal for songwriters has gained real traction. Tom's belief that one difficult conversation a day, with whoever is in front of you, is more useful than waiting for systemic change. And the case for cautious optimism from someone who has been fighting this for five years and can see things starting to move.

The Drowned in Sound podcast is presented in partnership with Qobuz, the pioneering high-quality music streaming and download platform for music enthusiasts and audiophiles. Each week we curate playlists on Qobuz, featuring our favourite records, artists, and the themes we explore on the show.

Visit https://drownedinsound.org/playlists/ to discover new music in rich Hi-Res lossless quality and start your 30-day free trial of Qobuz at https://qobuz.com/dis.

Edited by: tell.studio (Phil, Louisa, Owen, Matt)

Visit: The Ivors Academy

Read: Tom's original Broken Record Twitter thread (April 2020)

Read: The (Kevin) Brennan Bill (Parliament.uk)

Read: CMA Music and Streaming Market Study, November 2022

Recorded at The Shure Experience Centre, London.

Sign up to the DiS newsletter: http://drownedinsound.org

How do you go from winning the Mercury Prize to writing music for a CBeebies series about a pig named Hector and a very glamorous chicken named Pru? The answer takes in a Tim Buckley obsession that lasted five years, years of touring America with bands like Frightened Rabbit, and a Brighton theatre company you've almost certainly never heard of.

In this week's episode, Sean finally sits down with Tom Gray, songwriter, founding member of Gomez, and the person behind the Broken Record campaign that took on Spotify. This is the first bit of a two-part conversation.

This episode stays close to the music and the person: what it meant to make Bring It On in 1997, before home recording was what everyone did, and what it felt like when it won.

Tom Gray is a songwriter and composer and a founding member of Gomez. The band's debut album Bring It On, recorded in bedrooms and back rooms when its members were 22 and 23, beat Massive Attack and Pulp to win the Mercury prize.

He went on to write music for theatre and film, including the CBeebies animated series Tilly and Friends, based on Polly Dunbar's books.

However, since 2020, Tom has been at the centre of one of the most significant debates in the British music industry. He founded the #BrokenRecord campaign, which started as a Twitter thread during the first lockdown and became a movement that put music creator rights onto the parliamentary agenda.

Alongside the campaign, Tom has been Chair of The Ivors Academy since 2022 and stood as a Labour candidate for Brighton Pavilion in the 2024 general election.

The conversation covers how Gomez happened: what making records at home without a budget or a studio actually does for the music, and the aesthetic of limitation that defined the band's early sound. Tom talks through the years he spent chasing down a slice of Tim Buckley's back catalogue, the anticipation of finally hearing the Starsailor album, the disappointment of actually listening to it, and the one track, 'Dolphins', that made the whole rabbit hole worth it.

The conversation also gets into what the other Gomez members have been up to, including an Empire of the Sun connection, and the first threads of the streaming frustration that becomes the whole of Part 2.

Part 2 is next week: more on the Broken Record campaign, the Kevin Brennan Bill, and AI.

The Drowned in Sound podcast is presented in partnership with Qobuz, the pioneering high-quality music streaming and download platform for music enthusiasts and audiophiles. Each week we curate playlists on Qobuz, featuring our favourite records, artists, and the themes we explore on the show.

Visit https://drownedinsound.org/playlists/ to discover new music in rich Hi-Res lossless quality and start your 30-day free trial of Qobuz at https://qobuz.com/dis.

Edited by: tell.studio (Phil, Louisa, Owen, Matt)

Visit: The Ivors Academy

Listen to: Dolphins - Tim Buckley (Sefronia, 1973) - original by Fred Neil (Fred Neil, 1967)

Watch: Tilly and Friends on CBeebies

Recorded at The Shure Experience Centre, London.

Sign up to the DiS newsletter: http://drownedinsound.org