Drowned in Sound

• Mary Spender - Why Now Is Actually The Greatest Time for Independent Musicians

  While most music industry coverage focuses on (poly)crisis and collapse, Mary Spender argues we're living through the greatest era for independent artists in history. But, but but... what about streaming economics, venue closures, and platform dependence? Don't worry, we get into it. With over 100 million YouTube views, 34,000 newsletter subscribers, and significant album sales achieved before releasing a single track to streaming, Mary demonstrates there are viable alternatives to industry doom-spiralling. In this conversation, she reveals her strategies for converting YouTube viewers into album buyers, why artists need to think like entrepreneurs, and what she'd build with Spotify's $400 million Joe Rogan budget. Sean also asks her about her recent video about why artists should embrace YouTube. Speaking of which, you will be able to see clips from this interview over on Drowned in Sound's YouTube: youtube.com/@DrownedinSound Timestamps 00:00 Sean's Intro 03:21 What will music be like in 2050? 06:25 Why artists should think like entrepreneurs 12:45 What does the future hold for independent artists? 16:56 The 1000 true fan theory 18:51 Should YouTube be the #1 platform for musicians? 24:36 Researching with an open mind. A rare skillset? 29:45 How to convert an audience from YouTube 34:17 What can the UK government do for music? 36:35 How would Mary spend the $400 million Spotify paid Joe Rogan? 38:39 Is long-form content on the return? 43:29 Sean's Outro Quotable Moments "Technically it's never been a better time to be a musician than today, even though everyone likes to talk about the heyday. But that was for a very lucky few." "If you don't have the grassroots, you don't have the artists in Wembley Stadium. Like you don't have that trajectory." Continue the Conversation📧 Email [email protected] with your questions for future episodes🌐 Join the Drowned in Sound Community📰 Subscribe to the Drowned in Sound newsletter Guest Links Mary Spender's YouTube Channel Mary's website and newsletter The Dire Straits Documentary on Nebula Referenced in Episode Kevin Kelly's "1000 True Fans" essay About the Host: Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound (est. 2000), manages artists including Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, and has worked with BBC 6 Music. Through this podcast, he maps the future of music by exploring culture, politics, and the systems shaping how we create and consume music. At its peak, Drowned in Sound had over 3 million readers. Stay tuned for details about its 25th anniversary celebrations.

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• DiSpatch: What a Glastonbury First-Timer Found - Hope, Love, Unity, Resistance & Joy

  What does it feel like to attend Glastonbury for the first time? Music journalist Emma Wilkes brings us along for her debut pilgrimage to the UK's landmark musical gathering. She spins us a sonic diary with interviews from Terminal 1 and Laima Layton, along with reactions to some of the politically charged moments of the festival (shouts to Amyl and the Sniffers). Along the way, there are vox pops with strangers, overlooked corners, and moments that slipped under the mainstream radar… 00:00 Introduction 01:51 Pre-festival preparation with Emma Wilkes 03:26 Attendees' expectations of Glastonbury 2025 04:22 First impressions and Thursday observations 06:19 Terminal 1 and an interview with Laima Layton 18:32 The sounds of Worthy Farm 19:12 How does the real-life festival compare to the coverage seen previously? 21:45 The political moments of Glastonbury 2025 30:42 The journey home, the Tuesday after, and a summary from a slightly raspy Emma 34:11 Expectations vs. reality with the people of the festival Mentioned in the episode: Laima Layton In Place Of War GRRRL Terminal 1 Amyl and the Sniffers JADE Seun Kuti Maruja Lambrini Girls Join the conversation: Drowned in Sound Community Email: [email protected] Stay updated: Subscribe to DiS newsletter

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• How Can Artists Build A Community? The Five Super Fans Theory

  How do you build genuine community when algorithms reward viral moments over real connection? What if sustainable music careers start with just five super fans rather than chasing millions of followers? Drowned in Sound founder & artist manager Sean Adams speaks with Nikki Camilleri - music strategist, Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, and founder of mana - about the ground-level realities of building a music career in 2025. From growing up in Malta and navigating geographic disadvantage to working with breakthrough artists like Cat Burns, Nikki breaks down what actually works in today's oversaturated landscape. This conversation digs deep into authentic community-building versus audience accumulation, the "five super fans" principle that challenges conventional wisdom, and why most artist advice around social media is fundamentally broken. Plus: Nikki's vision for fixing music industry infrastructure by 2050, including transparency tools and direct fan connection platforms that don't rely on algorithmic gatekeepers. "You need five super fans to start getting going - that's equal to about 250 passive fans. When you start looking at it that way, it doesn't seem as daunting." — Nikki Camilleri on why quality beats quantity in fan building Episode Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction: Music Reality Check for 2025 02:03 Envisioning Music in 2050: Transparency and Infrastructure 04:34 The Malta Factor: Geographic Disadvantage in Digital Times 08:26 The Resilience Crisis: From "Ready to Fight" to Viral Expectations 16:28 Five Super Fans vs Viral Algorithms: Quality Over Quantity 20:14 Real Community vs Audience: Building Genuine Connection 32:15 Artist Purpose and Identity: The "Horror Electronica" Story 39:21 Fixing the Industry: Where Would You Spend Spotify's Money? 44:48 Key Takeaways: What Actually Works Mentioned in the episode: Nikki Camilleri ROSTR Royal Society of Arts Volt.fm Kat Abu The Anchoress Kevin Kelly on 1000 True Fans Join the conversation: Drowned in Sound Community Email [email protected] Subscribe to DiS newsletter

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• How Music Supports Mental Health with Ariana Alexander-Sefre (SPOKE)

  What does it mean to “metabolize” emotion through music? Do wellness tools actually work better when paired with your favourite artist? Why does the music industry treat artists like products and not caregivers? Drowned in Sound founder Sean Adams is joined by Ariana Alexander-Sefre, co-founder of the mental health app SPOKE⁠, to talk about the future of therapy and how music can play a pivotal role in that. The conversation explores the science behind sound, the emotional toll on musicians, and why music should be taken seriously as a public health tool. Spoke has worked with over 100 artists, training them in techniques like CBT and mindfulness to embed into lyrics and melodies - and the results are changing lives. Episode chapters: 0:00 - 2:45 - Introduction 2:46 - 4:55  What would Ariana hope music to be like in 2050? 4:56 - 7:46 Using music to “metabolize” emotions 7:47 - 11:50 Who are SPOKE and who is Ariana Alexandre-Sefre 11:51 - 13:42 The relationship between music and mental health 13:43 -  20:28 Inside the SPOKE app - embedding music with culture with therapy 20:29 - 31:18 Why the music industry needs a fresh perspective on artist value 31:19 - 37:08 The science behind functional music and mindfulness 38:09 - 40:04 The real-world impact of therapy delivered through music 40:05 - 48:08 Can artists become a recognised part of healthcare? 48:09 - 54:13 - Closing thoughts from Sean Mentioned in the episode: Music Minds Matter Can Music Make You Sick? (Sally Anne Gross) Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Cost of the Perfect Playlist (Liz Pelly) Endel Join the conversation: Drowned in Sound Community Email: [email protected] Subscribe to DiS newsletter

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• Can You Hear Earth Singing? Meet Musicians Using Sound to Protect the Planet

  What does a melting glacier sound like? Can a rainforest sing? And what happens when the last bird of its species hears a recording and tries to reply? In this special live edition of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, recorded at Tallinn Music Week, host Sean Adams moderates a powerful conversation on music, ecology, and collective action. Joined by artists and innovators from the EarthSonic project, the panel explores how field recordings, plant biofeedback, and immersive sound can shift our understanding of the planet — and why that emotional shift matters. From Brazil’s disappearing biodiversity to sound fossils in the Swiss Alps, this episode weaves together music, activism, and indigenous wisdom in an urgent yet hopeful conversation about art’s role in averting climate collapse. Plus Ruth from In Place of War reveals their new project with Bicep in Greenland that launches in summer 2025. Featured Guests & Projects: ⁠Natural Symphony (Joey Dean)⁠ ⁠Ludwig Berger⁠ ⁠In Place of War / EarthSonic (Ruth Daniel)⁠ ⁠Martyn Ware (Heaven 17 / Human League)⁠ Episode Highlights & Timestamps: 03:00 – Ruth Daniel on the origins of In Place of War and EarthSonic 06:00 – Ludwig Berger: Listening to melting glaciers through hydrophones 11:00 – Martyn Ware (Heaven 17/The Human League) on sonifying endangered species and synthetic forests 17:00 – Natural Symphony: Collaborating with plants and reforesting the Amazon 27:00 – The power of sound to bridge disconnection and inspire action 33:00 – Building cultural change through art and emotional resonance 39:00 – Sound healing, deep listening, and making the unseen audible 45:00 – What capitalism doesn’t want us to feel — and why art matters 52:00 – Indigenous wisdom, urban detachment, and finding your own tree 58:00 – Hopeful projects, collective agency, and calling in the music industry Mentioned in the Episode: "The Last Scream" new release Crying Glacier movie EarthSonic panel replay via the TMW.EE website Join the Conversation: Drowned in Sound Community Email Sean → [email protected] Follow Sean on Bluesky Subscribe to the DiS Newsletter

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