Seize & Desist

Jason Sandoval speaks with Dr Jessica Davis, former analyst for FINTRAC and the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), about what happens between spotting illicit crypto and actually seizing it. Drawing on her years inside Canadian intelligence, Jessica explains where cases stall after detection, why the money only tells part of the story, and what a win looks like when crypto can move in minutes.

⏱️ Timestamps
05:15 – watching versus seizing
09:50 – three state playbooks for crypto
16:30 – how criminal liquidity helped states
18:40 – FINTRAC’s mandate and OTC cash-out desks
31:45 – financial intelligence and intent
40:50 – what counterterrorist financing achieves
44:30 – timely disruption and the speed of money

👤 About Our Guest
Dr Jessica Davis is President and Principal Consultant at Insight Threat Intelligence, researching how Iran, Russia, North Korea, China and Venezuela use crypto to evade sanctions. She spent 17 years in Canadian security and intelligence, including at FINTRAC and as a threat financing analyst at CSIS, and is the author of Illicit Money.

🔑 Key Takeaways
Watching and Seizing Work Together
Every disruption displaces a network, and following what comes next reveals where it goes.

Detection Is Not the Bottleneck
Suspicious crypto activity is often flagged, but without dedicated investigators on the receiving end, disclosures rarely become seizures.

Integrate the Financial Investigation
The money only makes sense alongside the human and technical intelligence, not in a parallel workstream.

Money Reveals Intent
Financial intelligence can distinguish between people who plan to act and those who only talk.

Smaller Flows Are Real Wins
Reducing the money available for terrorism and sanctions evasion is a success in its own right.

📚 Resources Mentioned
Jessica Davis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmdottawa
Insight Threat Intelligence: https://www.insightthreatintel.com
Illicit Money: Financing Terrorism in the Twenty-First Century by Jessica Davis: https://amzn.eu/d/0feNbpsL

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If you found this episode useful, share it with your asset recovery colleagues, subscribe to Seize & Desist wherever you listen and connect with Asset Reality on LinkedIn to be the first to hear about new episodes, events and resources.

⚠️ Disclaimer
Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

Jill Thomas speaks with Cornel Calinescu, chair of the Council of Europe committee that negotiated the new Additional Protocol to the Warsaw Convention. They discuss who writes asset recovery standards and what they mean for front-line practitioners.

Cornel takes us inside the Strasbourg negotiations, where 41 jurisdictions turned a small protocol into more than 40 technical articles. He explains how an open treaty creates a common language: definitions for crypto assets and VASPs, broader confiscation types, standard forms for seizing orders, and post-conviction tracing. They also cover value as the measurement unit of asset recovery, interlocutory sales, and why statistics are still missing.

Timestamps
07:00 – Asset recovery over the last 20 years
13:15 – the Warsaw Convention and the 1% problem
19:30 – The Strasbourg negotiations
24:15 – An open treaty with a common language
29:00 – Crypto, confiscation types and standard forms
37:00 – Value as a measurement unit
40:45 – Interlocutory sales and ANABI
45:15 – Cornel's magic wand: changing the mindset

About Our Guest
Cornel Calinescu is an asset recovery consultant and chair of the Council of Europe committee on the Additional Protocol to the Warsaw Convention, elected by the 41 jurisdictions taking part. Over 26 years at Romania's Ministry of Justice, he established the country's first asset recovery office and led its consolidation into ANABI. He is a long-standing member of CARIN.

Key Takeaways
Asset Recovery Needs One Language
The protocol defines crypto assets, VASPs and confiscation types so every party means the same thing.

The Protocol Reaches Beyond Europe
As an open treaty, jurisdictions outside the Council of Europe can use adopt instrument.

Value Is the Measurement Unit
Only tracking value from crime to disposal shows whether a case met its target.

Seize Assets, Not Paper
Value-based orders must be backed by tracing, seizing and managing real assets.

Speed Is Built Into the Process
Standard forms replace translated, stamped files when crypto moves in a click.

Resources Mentioned
Cornel Calinescu on LinkedIn
Council of Europe Warsaw Convention
Additional Protocol to the Warsaw Convention
EU Directive on Asset Recovery and Confiscation
FATF Asset Recovery Guidance

Stay Connected
If you found this episode useful, make sure you:
Subscribe to Seize & Desist wherever you listen
Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn for updates, resources, and future episodes
Share this episode with colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime

Disclaimer
Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

Jason Sandoval speaks with Jonathan Benton, former Head of the UK's Int. Corruption Unit at the National Crime Agency and now CEO and Founder of Intelligent Sanctuary, about the gap between criminal efficiency and institutional deliberation, and what it takes to close it in digital asset recovery. They discuss how immutable on-chain markers are used to identify wallet holders and support compliance with FATF's recommendations, as well as the legal questions being tested in court cases like Tulip, D'Aloia and Jones.

Seize & Desist speaks to practitioners across asset recovery, investigators, policymakers and people building tools in the field. No guest pays to appear, and nothing mentioned, including any tools or technology discussed, is endorsed or commercially connected to Asset Reality.

⏱️ Timestamps
01:30 – Jonathan’s years in law enforcement
14:45 – marking stolen crypto to identify wallet holders
19:00 – on-chain movement vs wallet attribution
28:45 – legal questions raised by Tulip, D'Aloia and Jones
33:45 – on-chain marking and FATF compliance
45:00 – building the International Anti-Corruption Coordination Centre

👤 About Our Guest
Jonathan Benton is CEO and Founder of Intelligent Sanctuary. He spent 30 years in UK law enforcement as a Detective Superintendent and the Head of the NCA's International Corruption Unit, leading some of Britain’s most complex corruption cases, including the Ibori case, the OPL 245 oil block scandal, and the case against the former Nigerian petroleum minister, as well as designing the International Anti-Corruption Coordination Centre.

🔑 Key Takeaways
Agility Is the Real Gap
Criminals move faster than institutions because nobody makes them fill out a form first. Procurement and policy cycles lag years behind criminal adoption of new tools.
On-Chain Visibility Isn't Attribution
Standard blockchain analytics show what happened on-chain, not who controls the wallet behind it. Closing that gap is what makes recovery possible.
Immutable Markers Turn Flags Into Evidence
A wallet marked with a police reference number, visible on any blockchain explorer and removable only by investigators, gives exchanges something concrete to act on.
Courts Are Setting the Rules Case by Case
Tulip, D'Aloia and Jones are testing a different legal questions, from exchange liability to service by NFT, shaping how digital asset recovery works in practice.

📚 Resources Mentioned
Jonathan Benton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanbenton
Intelligent Sanctuary: https://isanctuary.io
Cambridge Int. Symposium on Economic Crime: https://www.crimesymposium.org

📬 Stay Connected
If you found this episode useful, make sure you:
Subscribe wherever you listen
Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn for updates on future episodes
Share this episode with your colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime

⚠️ Disclaimer
Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

What happens to a seized mafia asset after the headlines fade? Dr Amber Phillips, Senior Lecturer in Criminology at UWE Bristol, has spent her career chasing that answer, starting with fieldwork in Calabria alongside anti-mafia organisations working to strip the 'Ndrangheta of its assets and its grip on local communities.
She joins Jason Sandoval to unpack her 'Beyond the Figures' research with financial investigators across England and Wales and the gap between headline recoveries and what practitioners count as success. Amber argues for a fifth 'D', Destination, alongside disruption, disentitlement and deterrence, and previews her new NCA/Home Office study, funded through the Asset Recovery Incentivisation Scheme (ARIS), on whether asset recovery genuinely deters crime.

⏱️ Timestamps
02:00 – Amber's route into asset recovery via Calabria
08:45 – how mafia power works and what asset recovery undermines
14:00 – the GOEL social reuse model in Calabria
17:50 – proposing a fifth D: destination as a measure of success
21:00 – Beyond the Figures
29:45 – how ARIS funding actually works

👤 About Our Guest
Dr Amber Phillips is a Senior Lecturer in Criminology at UWE Bristol, specialising in organised and economic crime. Her career began in Calabria with anti-mafia organisations and she now leads a new NCA/Home Office study examining whether asset recovery genuinely deters crime.

🔑 Key Takeaways
Numbers Do Not Tell the Story
Amber's research with financial investigators found headline figures often miss the disruption and investigative quality practitioners value most.

Destination Deserves Its Own D
Amber proposes adding Destination to the existing framework of disruption, disentitlement, deterrence and detection.

Low Value Orders Can Outperform High Value Ones
A small seizure from an early-stage offender can disrupt a criminal career as effectively as a six-figure one further down the line.

ARIS Funding Shapes Investigator Behaviour
How ARIS returns are split between confiscation and forfeiture orders can push investigators toward the more lucrative route, not the more powerful one.

📚 Resources Mentioned
Dr Amber Phillips on LinkedIn
Bristol247 on the NCA/Home Office study
Seize & Desist E32 with Sal Melki, NCA
Seize & Desist E35 with Oliver Bullough

📬 Stay Connected
If you found this episode useful, make sure you:
Subscribe to Seize & Desist on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen
Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn and Twitter/X for updates, resources, and future episodes
Share this episode with colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime

⚠️ Disclaimer
Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.

Oliver Bullough has written three books on how dirty money moves around the world. His single biggest finding is so low-tech it almost sounds like a joke. Jason Sandoval, former DEA special agent and Asset Reality’s Head of European Operations, spent thirty years chasing the same problem. One investigated it, the other wrote about it. Together, they unpack why the global system for tackling money laundering is not working and what it would take to build something that does.

⏱️ Timestamps
02:30 – Money laundering as a meta-crime
13:00 – Carousel fraud and what a mission-led response looks like
24:00 – High-denomination banknotes and who is actually using them
29:30 – Operation Destabilise and cash-for-crypto
35:00 – Political will vs operational realities
40:10 – Asset recovery as a fourteen-point swing
42:20 – Oliver’s prescription

👤 About Our Guest
Oliver Bullough is an award-winning journalist and author of Moneyland, Butler to the World, and Everybody Loves Our Dollars. He has spent his career mapping how dirty money moves globally, writing for The Guardian, The New York Times, GQ, and The Economist. This is his second appearance on Seize and Desist.

🔑 Key Takeaways
Criminals Go Where Defences Are Weakest: As banks tightened controls, criminal wealth moved to crypto and trade finance, which remain vastly under-regulated.

Carousel Fraud Shows What Works: The UK’s near-complete defeat of carousel fraud shows what happens when intelligence, law enforcement and legislation pull together with a shared mission.

High-denomination Banknotes Undermine Everything: Fewer than 15% of US transactions are now done in cash, yet demand for $100 bills keeps rising. Central banks are printing them without asking where the demand is coming from.

Asset Recovery Is a Fourteen-Point Swing: Taking assets from criminals degrades their capability and improves law enforcement’s at the same time.

Political Will Is the Missing Variable: Every intervention Oliver identifies is achievable. The barrier is the political will to confront the interests of those with wealth to hide.

📚 Resources Mentioned
Everybody Loves Our Dollars by Oliver Bullough: https://amzn.eu/d/06emtzVh
Butler to the World by Oliver Bullough: https://amzn.eu/d/gaqVRE9
Moneyland by Oliver Bullough: https://amzn.eu/d/ezB43Rv
Oliver Bullough on The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/profile/oliverbullough
Seize & Desist Episode 19 with Oliver Bullough: https://link.cohostpodcasting.com/d9980f5e-8a52-48d5-a31b-0ecfe2a3cc89?d=eJs8ymAzD&v=8112

📬 Stay Connected
If you found this episode useful, make sure you:
Subscribe to Seize & Desist wherever you listen
Follow Asset Reality on LinkedIn and X for updates, resources, and future episodes
Share this episode with colleagues working in asset recovery, investigations, or financial crime

⚠️ Disclaimer
Our podcasts are for informational purposes only. They are not intended to provide legal, tax, financial, and/or investment advice. Listeners must consult their own advisors before making any decisions on the topics being discussed. Asset Reality has no responsibility or liability for any decision made or any other acts or omissions in connection with your use of this material. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. Views and opinions expressed by Asset Reality employees are those of the employees and do not necessarily reflect the views of the company. Asset Reality does not guarantee or warrant the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, suitability or validity of the information in any particular podcast and will not be responsible for any claim attributable to errors, omissions, or other inaccuracies of any part of such material. Unless stated otherwise, reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by Asset Reality.