Beyond Sunday Worship Leader Podcast

David Santistevan talks with John Van Deusen, a former indie-rock musician and current worship director in Anacortes, Washington, about bringing experimental sounds and artistic risk into worship music. Van Deusen traces how the Pacific Northwest’s DIY scene and his own journey of faith shaped his records, then offers practical ways worship teams can reimagine familiar songs while keeping congregational participation central.

Chapters

00:00 Planning Center: 20 years of helping make Sundays count

00:42 How worship music moved from experimentation toward a shared sound

03:50 Meet John Van Dusen and his experimental worship records

06:07 Anacortes, DIY music, and learning to take artistic risks

10:33 The performances that expanded Van Dusen’s sense of music

15:02 Church, alternative music, and discovering faith could make room for both

20:34 From The Lonely Forest to writing songs about Jesus

25:19 Making sacred art without chasing the worship-music formula

28:26 Balancing creative records with singable Sunday worship

35:49 Why Van Dusen leaves live click tracks and backing tracks behind

40:20 The noisy, welcoming message of “A Call to Worship”

46:18 Recording in a closet and building the album with collaborators

53:49 A rehearsal exercise for finding your church’s own arrangements

59:28 Build a worship team through honesty, prayer, and community

Music licensed through Soundstripe. Code: CB5MM4V08CBFBHBX

The post #406: John Van Deusen Is Breaking All the Rules of Worship Music…And It’s Awesome appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

The post #405: Righteousness And Peacemaking Through Holy Activism With Jonathan Tremaine Thomas appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

What is spiritual formation? What does it mean to follow Jesus? How do we change and transform? Does it happen in a moment or develop over a lifetime? So much of modern evangelicalism is oriented towards encounter – powerful experiences. I – for one – am grateful for powerful experiences I’ve had in the presence of God. But when we frame spiritual growth as a moment – as an encounter – what are we missing out on? In what ways are we being malformed?

This is the subject of my conversation with Jonathan R. Bailey, author of the new book Dwelling in Christ: Discover the Threefold Path of Spiritual Transformation. Jonathan’s was one of my favorite spiritual growth reads this year. For one, it’s not a long book and I too often find myself reading long books. But it’s also a down to earth description of what it actually looks like to follow Jesus over a lifetime. No easy answers. No escaping suffering. And so I wanted to talk to him about it.

Jonathan is the cofounder of Dwell, an audio Bible app helping people rediscover the ancient practice of listening to Scripture. He also serves on the ministry team at Renovare, an organization founded by Richard Foster.

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor: Planning Center

Dwelling in Christ by Jonathan R. Bailey

Prayer by Richard J. Foster

A Long Obedience in the Same Direction by Eugene Peterson

The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard

Celebration of Discipline by Richard J. Foster

Streams of Living Water by Richard J. Foster

Renovare

Dwell Bible App

Three Weekly Lights by Jonathan R. Bailey

Mere Christianity By C.S. Lewis

The Genesee Diary by Henri Nouwen

The Return of the Prodigal Son by Henri Nouwen

The Contemplative Pastor by Eugene Peterson

The post #404: Transactional vs. Transformational Faith With Jonathan R. Bailey appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

Topics Covered:

Jason’s adoption story and upbringing

Learning about God from different streams of historic Christianity

Why worship is more than just expression

Whether Jason sees himself as a worship leader

The pressure to be a Christian influencer

When to be spontaneous in worship

Song stories

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible (50% off)

Show Sponsor: Planning Center

Mothers & Fathers, Sisters & Sons by Jason Upton

Raids on the Unspeakable by Thomas Merton

Show Sponsor #1: Dwell Bible

This episode is brought to you by the Dwell Bible app. Did you have big plans to listen to the Bible in a Year in 2026, but life seemed to get in the way?

Maybe it’s been a few years since you worked through a Bible listening plan, and now you’re feeling the itch to dive back in. Or perhaps this is your first time hearing about a Bible listening plan.

Wherever you find yourself today, Dwell has something special just for you!

Beginning October 1, you can dive into the New Testament in just three months! It’s the perfect way to get back on track or start fresh, by listening to the Bible! It’s never been more easy to fit a Bible plan into your active lifestyle.

You can choose from multiple NT in 90 Day plans like:

The Genre Plan – which groups books by their theme, taking you through the Gospels, Epistles, and Prophecy in a way that highlights their connections and differences

The Historical Plan – which takes you through the New Testament as it was likely written, offering a unique historical perspective

The Straight Thru Plan – which takes you through the traditional order, from the life of Jesus through the growth of the early church

And remember, with Dwell, you’re not just listening—you’re experiencing the Bible. You can choose from a variety of amazing voices, set the perfect background music, and even adjust the speed to match your pace.

To subscribe to a new plan now, head over to dwellbible.com/beyondsunday for 50% off today and so you’re ready to start on October 1st!

Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you’ll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it’s all right there, so you’re not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.

The post #403: A Fresh Perspective On Worship with Jason Upton appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.

If you’re a follower of Jesus, you know you’re supposed to share your faith.We’re supposed to tell others about Jesus. But it’s often a topic that gives any Christian anxiety. What if I don’t know how to articulate what I believe? What if someone asks me a difficult question I don’t know how to answer?

What if I’m a terrible Christian, fail in my defense, get laughed at, and the name of Christ is disrespected because I don’t know what I’m talking about?

Take a deep breath…

Lisa Fields is the CEO and founder of Jude 3 Project, a leading apologetics organization dedicated to equipping the Black community with the tools to know what they believe and why they believe it. As a renowned Christian apologist, speaker, author, and film producer, she has been a driving force in shapi ng conversations on faith, theology, and culture.She is the author of two books When Faith Disappoints and When Heroes Fall. She has also contributed to two additional books, Cultural Engagement: A Crash Course in Contemporary Issues and Urban Apologetics: Cults and Cultural Ideologies.

I wanted to talk to Lisa about her unique way of doing apologetics, what it’s like being a black women in a field of study that primarily consists of white men, deconstruction and reconstruction, and how to navigate leadership scandal as both organizations and individuals.

Topics Covered:

Lisa’s story

Healthy and unhealthy ways to approach apologetics

Deconstruction and reconstruction

Healthy accountability for pastors and churches

What to do when a leader falls

The challenge of being a black woman in a white male-dominated space (apologetics)

Resources Mentioned:

Show Sponsor: Dwell Bible

Show Sponsor: Planning Center

When Faith Disappoints by Lisa Fields

When Heroes Fall by Lisa Fields

Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by John Mark Comer

Bullies And Saints by John Dickson

People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck

Show Sponsor #1: Dwell Bible

This episode is brought to you by the Dwell Bible app. Did you have big plans to listen to the Bible in a Year in 2026, but life seemed to get in the way?

Maybe it’s been a few years since you worked through a Bible listening plan, and now you’re feeling the itch to dive back in. Or perhaps this is your first time hearing about a Bible listening plan.

Wherever you find yourself today, Dwell has something special just for you!

Beginning October 1, you can dive into the New Testament in just three months! It’s the perfect way to get back on track or start fresh, by listening to the Bible! It’s never been more easy to fit a Bible plan into your active lifestyle.

You can choose from multiple NT in 90 Day plans like:

The Genre Plan – which groups books by their theme, taking you through the Gospels, Epistles, and Prophecy in a way that highlights their connections and differences

The Historical Plan – which takes you through the New Testament as it was likely written, offering a unique historical perspective

The Straight Thru Plan – which takes you through the traditional order, from the life of Jesus through the growth of the early church

And remember, with Dwell, you’re not just listening—you’re experiencing the Bible. You can choose from a variety of amazing voices, set the perfect background music, and even adjust the speed to match your pace.

To subscribe to a new plan now, head over to dwellbible.com/beyondsunday for 50% off today and so you’re ready to start on October 1st!

Show Sponsor #2: Planning Center

This episode is brought to you by Planning Center, helping you sync all your ministry details across your whole church.

Planning Center has become so essential to how I manage a team, that it’s almost impossible to consider local church ministry without it anymore.

Today, I want to leave you with a PCO pro-tip.

Does this sound like a familiar situation? It’s the end of the week. You’re about to leave the office when you suddenly think: Did all of our volunteers confirm for Sunday? You scroll through the schedule and sure enough—there’s a gap.

Instead of allowing yourself to spiral into a panic, try this:

In Services, Planning Center has gap alerts. Turn them on, and you’ll get a heads-up days before service if positions are still unfilled or unconfirmed. No more end of the week scrambling.

Speaking of less scrambling, did you know you can access everything you need for rehearsals right from the Service media player on your phone? Lyrics, chord charts, arrangement notes—it’s all right there, so you’re not hunting for files in the middle of hitting those power chords.

To see what else you can do to make your Sundays easier, go to planningcenter.com/blog.

The post #402: Apologetics, Disappointing Faith, And When Heroes Fall with Lisa Fields appeared first on Beyond Sunday Worship.