The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast

Bret Tollgaard, president at Sunrez, joins to discuss faster UV blade repairs, new leading edge materials, and growing OEM approvals. Reach out to sales@sunrez.com to learn more!

The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast is brought to you by Weather Guard Lightning Tech, creators of the StrikeTape Ultra LPS retrofit. Subscribe to Uptime’s Substack newsletter. And check out Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” Youtube channel. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress powering tomorrow.

Allen Hall: Brent, welcome back to the program. 

Bret Tollgaard: Appreciate you having me back on. 

Allen Hall: There’s been so much happening in the world of UV prepregs and UV adhesives over the past year. Particularly on LinkedIn, I’ve seen numerous repairs which have used your material, SunRes material, to fix some pretty decent, uh, blade problems.

Are you seeing, just seeing a, a much wider adoption now that everybody has basically agreed that UV is the way to go? 

Bret Tollgaard: I, I really do think that it’s starting to become one of the go-to standards for a variety of repairs in the wind market. And yeah, it’s great to see both our prepregs and lights being used all over LinkedIn, showing the [00:01:00] capabilities of the materials and how happy customers are to use and adopt the materials.

Allen Hall: Yeah. The UV materials are, are getting adopted by OEMs. A lot of ISPs, a, a lot of operators now have it as a standard practice to use UV cured materials just because of the speed and the time that is saved. Uh, it’s, it’s remarkable how much time you’re saving, because the, the real kicker right now if you’re trying to do a repair, even in the summer months, let’s just say it’s warm outside and the temperatures are right and it’s calm winds, you’re saving multiple hours per repair.

What generally… How much time are you generally saving on a kind of a, quote unquote, “standard blade repair”? 

Bret Tollgaard: More and more time, actually, with each session. So we might be saving 50 upwards of 80% of the labor of a traditional epoxy repair. Um, what we’ve been training companies to do more and more frequently is to actually pre-consolidate the entire repair patch downtower, whether it’s in the trailer or inside the tower itself.

Um, and so you can pre-consolidate, get [00:02:00] all the air out in between your layers, have the primer pre-applied to the backside. That way, when you’re actually uptower, it’s simply peel, stick, roll, and then cure it out with our UV light. Sub 10 minutes, uh, will get you a fully cured part. 

Allen Hall: Wow. That’s remarkable.

Yeah, when I see those LinkedIn posts from all kinds of operators all around the world using your material I also noticed that the weather conditions may not be pristine like you would have to do with epoxy. So there, there’s like a band of temperatures that epoxy systems generally work in. But with the UV material, I’m noticing, I’ve s- I s- especially over the wintertime, I saw some cold weather repairs going on.

Is there any limitation really to the UV cured patches and materials in temperatures? 

Bret Tollgaard: There, there really aren’t for the temperature ranges that people will actually be out and installing these. Some of my favorite photos are when it’s negative five Celsius outside and everyone’s got the big gloves, the big [00:03:00] scarves, the big warmers and everything, and they’re applying our prepreg materials, uh, in below freezing conditions and still curing with the same 10-minute cycle time.

Uh, another big advantage of our UV prepregs is everything’s already pre-wet out, so you’re not uptower with your fiberglass and your resin kicking off an epoxy or even some other, uh, you know, materials out there where it’s really hard to impregnate and get that saturation and kick off with UV. And so our prepreg repair patches really lend themselves to efficiency in the field, uh, over a really broad variety of, uh, ambient temperatures.

So some of the negative five, negative 10 C installs all the way up to the hot ones in Texas and India and Australia, where you’ve got these people and it’s 100 Fahrenheit or, you know, 35 plus C, and you still cure with the same consistency, the same cure rate, the k- same cure speeds, um, really, really makes it a very versatile system.

Allen Hall: It just gets rid of the variation and, and [00:04:00] that’s one of the items when we look at repairs. So we’re on the lightning side of this business where lightning damage happens, so we see a lot of repairs happen. We also see a lot of repairs that don’t look great. They’re, I mean, the vast majority do look great, but you get these occasional ones where they’ve tried to use epoxy in the wintertime and use a heat blanket.

It, it’s difficult to do. It, it just is because of the material, it’s very difficult to do. I’m recommending more and more that they use a UV cure material if they’re gonna go off and do it, particularly as they, uh, do what I would consider to be a temporary patch until they get where they can do more in-depth work when it’s warmer outside.

But it, it does really change the game because the ability to buy the material quickly is amazing. Uh, b- there’s no hazardous me- chemi- chemicals in, uh, the Sunrise material at all, so it can be shipped anywhere, anytime, overnight, on a airplane, on a truck, doesn’t matter. Does that really open up the marketplaces for the [00:05:00] Sunrise UV cure materials?

Bret Tollgaard: 100%. And because of the long shelf life as well, um, we stock and store all of the common, um, materials used for wind. The prepreg, the putties, the surface primers. Fiberglass also does a great job of stocking and storing things. And yeah, because these can ship as unregulated materials, we get calls for next-day air shipping all the time, all over the world.

And so whether it’s out here domestically, it’s going up to Canada, Europe, uh, Asia, Australia, um, it’s really, really simplifies the whole process from start to finish. 

Allen Hall: Are there any special tools you need to use when applying a, a UV cured prepreg patch to a blade, or is it just standard existing tools? Is there anything unique there?

Bret Tollgaard: No. It’s kind of as simple as it gets. There’s no vacuum bag required. There’s no heat blanket required. To truly install the materials, you’re gonna take off the back, uh, layer of, of the film on the backside of the [00:06:00] prepreg, re-stack and consolidate your materials. Uh, you’re gonna consolidate that with a basic three-inch or six-inch bubble buster hand roller.

Every technician’s gonna know exactly what that is. Uh, it’s a simple piece of little rolling metal that, uh, simply rolls out any air between the, the repair patches. And then after that, you’re gonna grab a paintbrush, and you’re gonna spread some of our surface primer over the backside of the prepreg. So you got a hand roller, and you got a paintbrush That’s all you’re gonna need to get the material up onto the wind blade.

And then of course, to cure the material, you need a UV light to do so. The sunshine, although it will cure the material, you never have consistent sun, light intensity, you’re on the shady side of the blade, et cetera. And so we’ve developed a variety of UV curing devices to help facilitate that. So our standard in the industry right now is what we call our Gen 2 LED lamp.

It’s about the size of an eight and a half by 11 sheet of paper. Um, but it’ll, it’ll cure several square feet at a time when you’re 14 to 20 inches or so away from that [00:07:00] surface. Uh, but in addition to that, we’re also working on a patent pending LED array system that is gonna be a broader… Right now, it’s about a half meter by one square meter surface area, and it’s gonna, um, emit a very, very uniform, uh, amount of light intensity across that entire surface all at once to make it even easier for the installers so they can just strap it to the blade, cure it for five minutes, and then move it over if they have a longer, uh, you know, one to two square meter repair.

Allen Hall: Wow, that’s remarkable. I, I have one of your lights, and I’m always shocked at how much light intensity there is because I’ve used other lights and seen other lights, and then they’re not nearly as bright or consistent across a, a piece of fabric, for example, where you just see uniformity. 

Bret Tollgaard: That is certainly one of the challenges that we’ve actually encountered when people say, “Oh, well, I have a UV light.

I bought it on Amazon. I bought it from eBay. I bought it from somewhere where that 200 watt listed on that is not truly 200 watts, or the light intensity, [00:08:00] uh, that they, you know, claim to have. UV cure materials need the correct wavelength. They also need the correct light intensity on that surface to guarantee your depth of cure and to make sure that you’re truly bonding to the base substrate behind you.

The thicker you go, the more light intensity you’re going to need. So a lot of the knockoff materials really just don’t do it justice, um, and which is why we’ve, you know, intentionally built the LED curing systems that we have to cure with our prepregs, uh, and putties and adhesives. So they are all true one, uh, one single system.

Allen Hall: We’ve looked at different light systems here at Weather Guard, and I know we’re engineer- we’re an engineering group, right? So we’re gonna go look to see what these different lights are, and are they really truly putting out the frequency of light which is written down on the ad. It’s amazing, like, uh, the variation you get light to light.

It really depends on what the source is, but, uh, to test a light, just to test a light to make sure it’s putting out the right intensity at [00:09:00] the right frequency is super expensive. So you can buy a several thousand dollar sensor to check your hundred dollar light, or you could actually buy the right thing from SudRes and have the proper light because it does change the cure rate and what the result is.

So- Y- y- is it easy to tell, Brett, when I, if I have a light in the truck, do I know it’s the right frequency? How do I even tell that, uh, to know that I’m using the right stuff? 

Bret Tollgaard: Well, if it says SunRes on the backside of that lamp, you have a guaranteed method of knowing exactly what that is. Um, we have the most broad industrial use UV lamp on the market, like, first and foremost.

There are several that cost four to five times what we do, but a lot of times they’re also a really small aperture, so they’re only curing a small footprint, which is why we’ve become the kind of gold standard for all UV cure repair solutions out there using a SunRes lamp. Um, we just make the best product, not to toot our own horn [00:10:00] too much.

Um, but it, it really serves the need of what these industrial customers in wind and other industries are looking for. Um, and I’m sure there are other systems out there. I’ve personally tried and tested dozens of different lamps out there to always see what’s on the market, and what we provide is just above and beyond performance-wise for the cost.

Allen Hall: And one of the, the questions that comes up with the light when we talk to operators, like, “Where do I get the light?” Well, you, you call Brett at SunRes and you buy yourself a light. The second question that happens is, has the OEM blessed this material? Have they validated the material? Has it been through material testing?

Has the OEM done structural loading on the material? Did I know that as a repair material, it’s actually gonna adhere to my polyester blade or my epoxy blade or whatever this thing is? Do I know that this is gonna work? Sunrise has been through a number of, uh, OEMs at this point. What’s the status of your OEM [00:11:00] relationships there?

Bret Tollgaard: Very, very solid, and constantly getting approved by more and more OEMs. Um, we’ve sold over 35,000 square meters of prepreg into the wind market alone. And with that has come a variety of, uh, you know, engineering approved jobs versus fully validated materials. We now have 20-year lifespans on a variety of different OEM, uh, wind parts.

And so our epoxy and polyester, we adhere phenomenal to both. And yeah, our prepregs are getting, uh, used more and more in every single application. 

Allen Hall: I, I assume you can provide references if, if someone were to ask, like an ISP, “Can I talk to the OEM about this?” 

Bret Tollgaard: Absolutely. Uh, and it, it’s, you know, no secret.

General Electric’s been one of the big pushers of UV cure materials now for a while, um, for both their epoxy and the LM polyester blades. Um, but there are several European OEMs that are actively, you know, certifying the materials as well. 

Allen Hall: Oh, that’s a smart move on their part. [00:12:00] Uh, one of the considerations for using a UV material is training.

Uh, do I need to do special training for my technicians? Is it really different than epoxy? Do I have to do any training at all? What’s the level of skill that would be in- involved in using a, a UV prepreg? 

Bret Tollgaard: The reality is, if you have any bit of experience of knowing what a resin and a fiberglass and wetting things out, UV just makes that job even simpler.

So all the repair technicians that have gone through repair academies, been trained on the, on site or on the job, that have gotten their hands dirty, as we like to call it, with making some, uh, composite repairs, UV is just gonna simplify the process even more. Um, in 2026 and 2027, we’re actually starting to work, uh, uh, more closely now with a variety of the blade repair groups or academies and training facilities to also get UV cure in people’s hands so they don’t experience, uh, for the first time when they’re out, you know, getting a job with one of these other [00:13:00] OEMs that are recommending use our material now instead of, uh, epoxy systems.

Allen Hall: Mm. And all the experience that’s happened at, at Sunrise, I, I don’t know if a lot of people realize that you’re a roughly 40-year-old company. You’ve been around a long time, although you’re nowhere near 40. But the company has been around a long time. What was the origin of SunRes? Uh, because it wasn’t necessarily in wind, right?

Wind is sort of an afterm- after-market kind of application where it kind of transferred over. But what, what was the core start of the business? 

Bret Tollgaard: Yeah, no, we were founded in September of 1986. So in just a couple of weeks, we’ll actually hit our 40-year anniversary. 

Allen Hall: Wow. 

Bret Tollgaard: SunRes was originally founded, uh, in, uh, once again, the, the mid-’80s for just UV cure formulations in general.

Spent the first several decades, uh, of its life being primarily an R&D, uh, kind of based group, um, formulating specialty UV cure solutions for mostly thick wall fiber reinforced applications. So anything from [00:14:00] boat hulls to, uh, drones to, uh, you know, bathtub repair and saddle trees. Um, we’ve sold really the, a whole kind of gambit of very broad basic systems to incredibly advanced high precision, uh, you know, applications.

And so as we grew and evolved the, the formulas and the recipes to cert- uh, to solve certain needs, now we’re kind of elevating that to a more, uh, manufacturing based business and offering true repair solutions as opposed to just R&D and working on developing solutions to repair something. 

Allen Hall: And that’s growing outside of just the pre-preg processing materials, packaging it up and shipping it.

And y- you’re now getting more into specific solutions in wind, which is really exciting. The leading edge erosion issue is plaguing a lot of turbine blades in the United States and, and globally. Australia has a big problem with it, and there’s a, some other places that I’ve seen some pretty [00:15:00] rough looking blades, India being another one.

Uh, the solution to go fix those blades has generally involved, uh, putting someone up on a rope, a- applying material, fiberglass back down, trying to repair holes in particular, and trying to cap that off. But now there’s some new materials that can speed up the process to at least get you back to a, a surface, a usable surface that you could then apply an LEP or whatever you decided to do there.

What do those new materials look like and, and how are they being used today? 

Bret Tollgaard: Yeah, no, great question. So ultimately there are broad– uh, you know, a really, really broad, uh, array of challenges that wind in particular really kind of faces. And so developing UV cure solutions to fit more of those than just a small little repair patch or a crack has been something that we’ve been working on for a while with a variety of different groups.

Um, but leading edge in particular, not just protection, but also the rehabilitation of those leading [00:16:00] edges. So we’ve done that in a couple of different ways. Some have been some pre-consolidated repair patches that we’ve built, where a specific blade requires, um, you know, a, a design package to reinforce certain areas, whether it was, uh, too many ply drops in a certain zone or an area of high wear.

Uh, but the other ones kind of more recently are starting to build, I’ll call like a fiber reinforced type putty, where you’re actually filling gaps, filling holes, filling imperfections with a more structural repair solution before then coming over the top with an LEP for the protection of that blade long term.

And so being able to provide solutions for both, uh, hand, but then also robotics is something that we’ve been focusing on. So repair technicians can do it, but then also make sure that the, uh, robotics industry has the materials that they need to be able to do that in a fast and timely manner. 

Allen Hall: So these new materials can be applied with a robot, I just heard.

How does that work? Is it a cartridge system or a liquid system? How– Is it sprayed on? [00:17:00] W- how does this thing work? 

Bret Tollgaard: Ultimately, it’s whatever that robotics company says that they would like and need. And so we build, uh, certain things to meet different demands on both of those aspects. But some are spray, some are coated, some are troweled, uh, all of which though, uh, include applying a UV cure material, uh, and then curing it to then make sure that they get the correct, uh, you know, mechanical and thermal properties for that leading edge or that leading edge re- rehabilitation.

Allen Hall: That must be a huge time saver. 

Bret Tollgaard: Phenomenally so. Uh, the robotics companies are, are pretty happy with the way that things are starting to unfold, and then same with the, uh, owner-operators. Like when you can go and you can have a robot Fix, sand, or sand, clean, fill that leading edge without a technician having to be up there.

Tremendous amount of time savings, and then also just liability and repeatability, um, which is always an important thing, is having extremely high quality throughout that entire process, uh, and then recording it and everything like [00:18:00] that too. 

Allen Hall: Well, that’s the key to any leading edge repair that I’ve seen, is the repeatability and controlling the, uh, sometimes the uncontrollables, trying to add a little bit of restriction about what you’re doing, how you’re doing it to get the consistency in the product.

Because there’s a lot of products on the market right now, uh, that supposedly will do this thing But there’s– we have seen a variety of outcomes even for the same material. C- moving to something that’s a little more standard and, and particularly UV-based, where it’s stable, shelf-stable, right? I mean, th-there’s no expiration date necessarily.

You, you probably put a time limit on it, but it’s shelf-stable, so I have a, a barrel of it in the, in the pickup truck. I can probably still use it. But, uh, what am I thinking about when I start to make those decisions? Because this is all new to most of the industry. They haven’t seen this. What– some of the things should they be considering when they’re thinking about, “I got a leading edge repair.[00:19:00]

It’s kinda ugly. It’s probably cat three, maybe cat four. Where am I going here? Who am I talking to, and why am I thinking about UV?” 

Bret Tollgaard: Yeah, I mean, ultimately it comes down to, you know, a variety of value that we provide the customers. Um, as you said, being shelf-stable is incredibly important. The reality is a lot of these repair materials aren’t being stored in a temperature-controlled warehouse.

It’s being stored in someone’s trailer, and they’re gonna use half of a cartridge, or they’re gonna use four prepregs, and they’re gonna have six more sitting on the shelf for two more months until they move to another job that they’re gonna go and do something else. And so the materials themselves need to have an incredibly long shelf life, but also be able to handle those varying temperatures.

Like if you’re out in the middle of Texas here in the United States, it can be 130, 140 degree Fahrenheit inside that trailer during the day, but at the same time at night, you can have temperatures below freezing in certain areas, and it needs to be able to withstand both of those extreme temperature environments.

Um, that being said, [00:20:00] you buy from a group like us or you buy it from Fibre Glast where it is stored properly, and it can be shipped next day to, to you on site. Uh, it simply, it, yeah, it simply helps, uh, everyone long term, uh, make sure that they have the materials that they need. 

Allen Hall: I would be remiss not to talk about our Strike Tape Ultra product, which is a partnership between Weather Guard, Lightning Tech, and SunRez.

Uh, it’s a project that we’ve been working on for probably two years now, maybe a little bit longer. It, it’s been a tremendous amount of effort, engineering time and materials-wise, and learning about different, uh, performance of a, uh, particular resin system and trying to figure out what works. But, uh, there is now a solution, and SunRez is producing a lot of Strike Tape Ultra parts at the minute Really durable, based on Sunrise material, but you’re using not just our, our, our obviously our, our recent, uh, experiments and all the data, [00:21:00]but this goes back almost 40 years.

You’re, you’re bringing 40 years of knowledge to the table to come up with a solution for a really difficult environment. 

Bret Tollgaard: Yeah, and we’ve had to certainly rely on the past experiences that we have learned along the way. Um, you know, part of the challenges of working for the last year or two years together on this was to truly make as robust and durable of a system as we can.

And so having this new 7303 vinyl ester-based system, uh, which we’re not only using for you but also using as the primary component for our LEP system, uh, it definitely has the durability and the longevity for, uh, your strike tapes, uh, in particular to be, uh, to withstand all the elements and all the abrasion and all the erosion that’s gonna come its way for years.

Allen Hall: Now, I, I’ve watched you at trade shows take a hammer to some of your prepreg materials and demonstrate you can cure it within a couple of minutes, and you’re hitting it with a hammer and it’s super tough. We’ve done that at Weather Guard with the Strike Tape Ultra. It’s [00:22:00] crazy durable, and I don’t understand the chemistry of what you guys do.

You’re experts in UV and all the chemicals and how to make this thing work, but it is truly remarkable how tough that material is and UV stable it is and how quick it is to cure and to get onto a blade in a couple of minutes. It’s quite remarkable, and the, the rain erosion performance of it has been crazy good.

Uh, it’s a real game changer. 

Bret Tollgaard: We’re extremely proud of the way that, uh, this has all kind of unfolded, and it has been a long time to kinda work through and iterate through the different formulas. Um, but the combination of the extremely hard and durable system that we have as the overcoating combined with our UV cure adhesive, AKA surface primer, uh, to act as that really, um, gooey, high elongation, great stress distribution kinda medium, uh, to then get that into the blade, it’s the perfect one-two combo, [00:23:00] and being able to cure in just a couple of minutes is only, uh, icing on the cake.

Allen Hall: Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s quite good. Uh, I know, uh, when people hear this podcast, you’re gonna get a lot of reach-out because we’re kinda getting near the end of the typical Northern Hemisphere season. It’s gonna get chilly here in about six to eight weeks since when we’re recording. How do people get ahold of you and start talking about repair patches and materials for this year, and also for next season?

Bret Tollgaard: The easiest way is gonna be reach out to us, uh, via email, info@sunrez.com, sales@sunrez.com. We’ll put you in touch with, uh, all the right people within Sunrez to make that happen for you. Um, and similarly too, groups like com- uh, Fibre Glast have been stocking and storing the material for years. They’re really, really great at tailoring the exact amount of material that you need for a given job site.

They’re willing to break it down to individual patches, single things of primer, putty. Uh, you come to us, you’re gonna have larger MOQs to be able to buy [00:24:00] boxes and rolls, uh, directly off the shelf. But at the same time too, we’re happy to get customers whatever products they need as quickly as they need, and put them in touch with the right people to do so.

Allen Hall: So you just Google Sunrez, S-U-N-R-E-Z, or just go to sunrez.com, and you’ll get to the Sunrez site, and you can learn a whole bunch about the materials of what is offered. But you need to, to call Brett and call the team at Sunrez, uh, to, to get the solution for you. And it is, uh, really great working with Sunrez.

It, it’s been a pleasure, honestly. 

Bret Tollgaard: My, uh, my business development manager, Gerhard, will certainly have me say, “Let’s direct all that to Gerhard instead of Brett.” So he’ll be happy to get you all the info that you need. Um, but yeah, so ultimately, we’re an extremely customer-driven company, and we bend over backwards as often as necessary to get customers what they need in the time that they need it.

It’s something that we really pride ourselves on. Uh, it’s also how we developed all these new, uh, technologies and materials to, to make customers’ [00:25:00]lives easier in the field. And so even as all of our wind portfolios, you know, grow and expands for product line offerings, um, we’re certainly interested in learning about what your challenge in particular is, and how we can best help you solve that challenge.

Allen Hall: Yeah, so if you have a blade challenge right now, and most operators do, you better be checking out sunrez.com. Brett, it’s so great to have you back on the podcast. Love having you on, and we’ll speak again soon. 

Bret Tollgaard: Looking forward to it. Thank you, Allen.

Vestas doubles second quarter profit and adds €4.7 billion in market value overnight. Plus EnBW finishes He Dreiht after a V236 blade break, the UK blocks Ming Yang’s Scottish factory, and India rules turbines are movable goods.

The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast is brought to you by Weather Guard Lightning Tech, creators of the StrikeTape Ultra LPS retrofit. Subscribe to Uptime’s Substack newsletter. And check out Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” Youtube channel. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

The Uptime Wind Energy podcast, brought to you by StrikeTape. Protecting thousands of wind turbines from lightning damage worldwide. Visit StrikeTape.com. And now, your hosts

Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall, and I’m here with Rosemary Barnes, Matthew Stead, and Yolanda Padron. And three out of the four of us will be in Melbourne Australia talking to a number of operators and interested parties about WOMA 2027. Matthew, where will we be the couple of days we’re in Melbourne?

Matthew Stead: So, um, first of all, we’ve got the Pullman, uh, East Melbourne, which is, uh, where the venue will be for, for 2027. Um, so that’ll be our home base. Um, we’ve got around about eight meetings planned already. So what we’re doing is we’re talking to the operators and a few other industry, um, players about [00:01:00] what we need to talk about, how we’re gonna move the industry forward in Australia.

Uh, so it’s gonna be jam-packed, but there’s a little bit of time left on the Friday afternoon if there’s any late-minute, um, people that wanna get in contact and catch up with us, um, for next Thursday, Friday, or actually Friday. Uh, so yeah, it’s gonna be a, a jam-packed time. I think we’re gonna be tired, too many coffees, and talking to all the key, all the key operators, uh, about what they wanna hear about and how we can move the, the industry forward.

Allen Hall: And if someone wants to put an input into the WOMA panel about what will be discussed at WOMA 2027, Matthew, how would they do that? How do they get ahold of you? 

Matthew Stead: Well, we have a wonderful website, and that’s got all the details you could ever want. Um, you can also register on the website, so please register.

Otherwise, um, I’m sure we’re gonna be a sellout this year for sure. So woma2027.com. 

Rosemary Barnes: I just wanna add that when people talk to [00:02:00] me about the event, they always say how they love that the topics are so relevant, and the reason why that they’re so relevant is because we make sure to go around to operators and find out what are the issues that they’re really dealing with.

So anybody that’s thinking of attending, even if you can’t, you know, meet us up, meet up with us in Melbourne, get in touch and tell us what are the, yeah, what are the topics that you’re struggling with that you’re not, um, you’re having trouble finding enough information, having trouble finding the people that can help you.

And y- yeah, like we take all of that information, and that’s how we come up with our agenda each year. And yeah, I mean, for us, that’s the, the main thing is that this has to be really relevant, up-to-date information for the industry, and we need your help to make sure it stays that way. I 

Matthew Stead: mean, that’s what we’ve done the last two years, so this is– we’re just repeating the formula, um, listening to the operators and getting the good topics and the good speakers.

Allen Hall: Well, Vestas has had a good quarter. Uh, the, for the last couple of years, honestly, s- [00:03:00] Vestas has been really thin on margins. There was questions about it continuing on. Rising costs mostly, uh, supply chains, especially during COVID, were bad. Uh, and, uh, but for the most part, the shareholders stayed attached.

Well, that story is changing rapidly. The world’s largest turbine maker posted second quarter operating profits of $400- €46 million, more than double what the analysts had expected, and it’s raised its full-year margin guidance alongside half-year results for the first time in a decade. The shares climbed about 20% in Copenhagen, adding roughly €4.7 billion of market value in a single session.

Now, the chief executive, uh, Henrik Andersen, ha- put it plainly to, uh, uh, in a couple of news sources that something much bigger is happening and Vestas is gonna be the, the leader in wind. That’s how I read it, that everybody [00:04:00]at Vestas was super happy with the, the change in direction and things were moving up steadily.

But a 20% jump in a day is remarkable. You don’t see that in large industrial businesses like wind energy. Matthew, this has real implications on what happens next for Vestas because success like this usually means more orders. 

Matthew Stead: Yeah, I wonder what’s going on under the hood there. Um, I mean, Vestas is a quality company, although, although can I just do a quick segue?

How many turbines were installed in Denmark in the last, uh, two years? Like last year and the year before? 

Allen Hall: I don’t know. How many? 

Matthew Stead: I believe it was eight turbines installed onshore in Denmark last year, and the year before it was 12. So, you know, maybe, maybe Vestas needs to focus on their own backyard a little bit as well.

Allen Hall: I’m not sure there’s a lot of opportunity there. Yeah, onshore. 

Matthew Stead: How can you ever be full? I mean, there’s always, um, [00:05:00] uh, you know, um, you know, resiting or, um, you know, upgrades and- 

Rosemary Barnes: You know what? Allen and I are probably gonna get some time in Jutland, uh, later this year, um, and that area and the old wind turbines there was actually the inspiration for my whole YouTube channel.

It just, ’cause there’s, you know, there’s turbines there from, the earliest one is, um, from the ’70s and still going. I think it’s one and a half megawatts, actually huge for, for that time. Um, and it was like community made, um, at Tvind. But anyway, I’m interested to revisit the site and have a look and see are these, you know, all these old turbines still there.

It’s only, like six years since I went through and did the experience but for the most part, they don’t seem to be yet pulling down the, the small old ones and putting up big ones. There’s a lot of, a lot of them are community owned. Um, and yeah, I mean, Danish people love wind turbines, but there’s only so many that you can have onshore.

Like, people are happy to live near them by, you know, the standards of people in other countries, but you don’t want [00:06:00] one in your literal backyard. I think that there is, there, there is a, a limit to how many more onshore wind turbines that you can get in that area and offshore expansion is the more likely way to go.

Um, and also I think it’s, it’s, it’s good to recognize that if you have a domestic only or a domestic first strategy, that will only get you so far and then you have to expand, and I think Denmark did that really well. I think Germany a little bit less. I think that Enercon were a bit surprised, um, by their strategy.

It, uh, they had a real hard time anyway when they had to transition away from mostly Germany to getting overseas. And obviously, like if you look at China, they have most of their installations are in China. They are trying so hard to get outside of China because it’s not, like even a market as big as China, it’s got decades to go before it will be full.

Um, you can still recognize that that’s not your, like long-term strategy for growth has to involve expansion, I think. 

Allen Hall: I think Vestas, regardless of what happens in Denmark, is making a play for the United States. That seems to be [00:07:00] where a significant effort is happening at the moment and on offshore. Their– Vestas seems very excited about the offshore opportunities.

Of course, there’s a ton of wind turbines gonna be installed in the UK and, and all around Northern Europe. Offshore, the opportunities to buy turbines, there’s only a couple that you could get today. Uh, uh, the GE Vernova offerings I, I don’t think are gonna fit the mold, and I don’t know if GE’s even actively selling.

So their competitor realistically is Siemens Gamesa, which does seem like the smaller player at the minute versus Vestas, which is heavily pushing the V236 and will fill order books like crazy, I think, uh, just based upon the, the history they’ve had and everybody knowing who they are. So Also on the move in Australia, right?

Vestas is huge in Australia right now. 

Rosemary Barnes: I think it’s really good that their, um, yeah, finances, uh, are [00:08:00] looking a bit better ’cause it’s been funny. Like, I tried early on in my wind career to invest in, you know, wind turbine manufacturers knowing that there would be immense growth, and I was right. There, there was immense growth.

Not that that was so hard to figure out that there would be, but it did not lead to any kind of, um, return on, on anything, you know. Like, that did not keep pace with the just general market. Um, so I, I stopped trying to, stopped trying to invest to that. But it has been really, really hard for the companies to, you know, raise money or y- you know, do any of the things that they need to do because they’ve always, like, they’re growing, growing, growing, but finances has been so tight that it has been a real constraint on the amount of engineering that they could do, and I really hope that Vestas are gonna take this opportunity that they’ve got compared to, you know, a lot of the other manufacturers.

Vestas do have really strong, um, innovation and, yeah, engineering capabilities for doing– you know, developing new technologies and improving them, and I really hope that they’re taking this opportunity to build that up. There are a lot [00:09:00] of very good engineers with a lot of experience in the industry in that area that are working in other fields at the moment because, you know, there’s been a lot of contraction in Denmark.

So I don’t know, it seems like a really good time to hire back some of that really in-depth knowledge and, yeah, get a- get ahead of, you know, some of the future quality problems. We’re going through such a hard time at the moment from the fast development that happened in the 20-teens when there wasn’t a whole lot of money around.

We’re dealing with quality problems now, so, you know, maybe we can get ahead and not have the next round of them if we can invest in just a lot more, uh, engineering capacity. 

Allen Hall: When you have success like Vestas has, usually the upper level management and some of the executive team starts getting pilfered, that they’ll get offers to repeat that success at another company, and it sounds like that process has started already.

There’s a couple of executives that have recently departing or are in the midst of departing from Vestas. [00:10:00] I would see that continuing f- at least for the next six months, uh, because everybody wants to repeat that, right? If you can get a 20% increase in your valuation overnight, uh, I can, I can list a number of companies, regardless of industry, that would love to participate.

Even in a 5% increase, that would be remarkable. So, um, Vestas is gonna have a hard time holding onto this. That’s just the nature of the business where things are successful, people will wander. And Rosemary, I, I think they’re– And Yolanda In, in my book, Vestas should sort of s-stand down and just make quality products.

I’m not sure you sh-should tinker too much at the time being and just make the good stuff better. That seems like a way to really increase profits. 

Yolanda Padron: Yeah, I mean, solving a lot of the issues that– And, and that’s not just a Vestas exclusive thing, right? All of these OEMs have some sort of issue that maybe– I know Rosie’s touched a lot on, on it, where [00:11:00] you build this version A and then version B solves one of the small little issues, but now it creates another little problem, and then you have version C, and then everything just kinda has its own niche little issue, um, that really expands over time.

So if they could solidify what they already have in, in a, in a model that, that would help them just even keep a lot of their customers, I think that’d be great, and it would help, certainly help them, um, not continuously, like, rotate around the customers, ’cause it almost feels like, at least in the States, right, you, you get GE to be really, really strong and have a huge market share, and then GE starts focusing more on gas turbines, so then they all go onto Vestas, and then they all go onto Ontara now.

Um, and then just, you know, just kind of everybody starts cycling through them because they just kind of want something that’s better quality than what they’re getting in the long haul. 

Matthew Stead: Allen, you, you talked about you think there’s something big under the hood. I think you, you [00:12:00] thought that maybe Vestas was angling towards something or being quite bullish.

Do you think that they might take over GE Vernova? 

Allen Hall: I don’t think they’re gonna grab Vernova, and I don’t think Vernova is for sale at the minute, but I wonder if Siemens Gamesa is, or Nordex. I mean, Nordex has done terrific the last couple of quarters and is making inroads in places that I didn’t think possible three, four years ago.

Uh, the European marketplace is be- becoming really unique in that sense that there’s a lot of money being put out. But is there a sole perfect solution for Europe? Not at the minute, ’cause you got two competitors there, and then China trying to, to work its way in. Will the Europeans come together and form something more united, even if it’s just a partnership, a loose partnership, versus letting China on the shores?

We’ll see. 64 of the largest machines that Vestas has builds are standing off the German coast, but one blade is missing a [00:13:00] piece. We’ll talk about that when we come back.

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Allen Hall: Well, Germany’s largest offshore wind farm is now fully installed, and EnBW confirmed this, uh, past week that all 64 of the Vestas V236 15-megawatt turbines are s- standing at the He Dreiht wind farm about 85 kilometers northwest of Borkum. Uh, 960 megawatts, [00:14:00] 2.4 billion euros invested. Man, these offshore projects are expensive to get installed.

Uh, so it’s power for roughly 1.1 million households, and there’s no state subsidy behind any of it. And so this is a little bit of a u- unique situation. Uh, th- well, the one footnote about the wind farm is they had a V236 blade break and fall into the North Sea, and they had fished it out and I think I passed along s- pictures that I saw online of, uh, one of the police boats pulling the shear web out of the water I don’t know what to think anymore about some of these offshore blade issues.

Obviously, Vestas is very conscientious about it and will be doing RCAs and engineering reviews and all the above to go identify what the problem is. But it does just lead to a little bit of a pause of do– what is going on for some of these offshore [00:15:00] wind blade installations or, or whatever’s causing these blades to break?

Do we have a good handle on it? Yolanda, is– are we following up on all the design details so that we can prevent these things in the future? 

Yolanda Padron: I mean, I’d, I’d hope you’d be following up on the design, right? Like, and, um, but I think there is still a little bit of a disconnect from, from what we’ve seen, and again, not just Vestas exclusive, um, between the people who are designing and the people who are manufacturing, the people who are in operations, right?

So, uh- The, from what we’ve heard, uh, this could have potentially been a, um, partially because of a transportation issue, which is what happens a lot in onshore. It’s a lot more common than we would like it to be. Um, and so that even goes beyond what would go on in the design studio and what would go on in the manufacturing and what would [00:16:00] go on even just for the people that are running the site, right?

So, so some sort of, um, in between, uh, EPC error. Um, but yeah, I just think that, like in a lot of industries, there should be a lot more communication between all of these teams on the lower level, so that way a lot of these problems can, can be avoided. 

Allen Hall: I’m wondering if it’s actually an issue on the, the testing side.

And, uh, the one question that just popped up, and we saw from the ORE Catapult, uh, survey that’s being conducted at the moment, and if you haven’t participated in that, you just visit ORE Catapult and answer some of the survey questions. But torsion on a blade, which is very difficult to test for, and it really isn’t tested for today, but does happen during the move and the transportation of these big offshore blades.

Is it one area that we need to do a little more work in or maybe spend some more time focusing on it to see what is happening as blades are [00:17:00]moved? 

Rosemary Barnes: The thing about te- torsion is that it is much more significant as blades get longer. I can’t, I can’t remember the equation off the top of my head, which is, um, bothering me.

But I think it scales with, like, the fourth power or something of, of length. And so whilst it was always a bit of a problem, it’s much more of a problem as it gets, as blades get bigger. I mean, they’ve never, like, fully tested a blade, and there was always a lot of reliance on, hey, y- you know, like we’ve tested certain things that is possible to test in a test facility on the ground.

But they also rely on their decades of experience of how blades actually behave in the field. But, you know, remember, that’s a real lagging, lagging indicator because y- you know, their decades of experience is mostly with lots smaller blades. Now, blades are really different because they’re longer and different effects are, are taking over.

It’s not just, uh, torsion, but it’s also the laminates get much thicker, and then y- you know, you, you have issues with the way that they’re curing, [00:18:00] and there’s a lot more just space for, um, defects to be present in a really thick laminate All of those things add up. Oh, yeah, then add in addition, like new materials, carbon fiber is new, and then new ways of producing it, you know, pultrusions, um, all kinds of different materials like balsa’s being replaced with foams and, um, like, you know, 10 times that number of what sounds like a small innovation, but all of these things have the potential for damage and don’t have a really long track record in the field to be able to kind of calibrate.

We do need to remember that, like, when you do something new, things are gonna break, uh, sometimes, they’re gonna fail sometimes. If they don’t, then you’re definitely being too conservative, and your product is costing more than it should, and nobody wants more expensive wind energy, right? 

Matthew Stead: Rosie, Rosie, I, I know you’re doing some, some excellent work on, um, industry studies around erosion and temperature and so forth.

Um, I just wanted to let a little secret out of the bag that, um, in the future there will also be some [00:19:00] other studies on torsion and blade twist and blade dynamics. So, um, just a few things are in, in train at the moment, which I can’t share, share, but, uh, watch this space around better understanding blade twist.

Allen Hall: The Hydride wind farm runs on European turbines, but the next one might not. Two governments with two very different answers on who gets to build Europe’s wind fleet.

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Well, two countries and two decisions, one question. In Scotland, the UK government blocked plans for the Chinese manufacturer Mingyang to build a turbine factory, uh, near Inverness on national security grounds. 1.5 billion pounds of investment, up to about 1,500 jobs. And First Minister John Swinney has asked the new prime minister to reconsider.

And the UK energy secretary minister called that request irresponsible. Meanwhile, up in Denmark, Vattenfall has just won two offshore wind farms and will not say whether it will buy European turbines. Danish suppliers are not taking that quietly. So [00:21:00] the Scotland question about the Mingyang factory is at least being discussed again with the new prime minister in the UK.

It does seem like there’s a lot to do and get the government formed and make all this stuff happen. But I don’t see a Burnham administration changing the outcome for Mingyang, but I could be wrong. At the, the same time, Vestas is pushing for a more Eurocentric focus and to really keep out the Chinese.

Uh, something has to give here pretty soon. 

Matthew Stead: I actually think Mingyang should, um, set up a factory in Scotland. I, I mean, what’s wrong with that? I mean, uh, why is that a security issue? 

Rosemary Barnes: Set up the factory and put the, like, whatever you’re worried about, put protections in place for it, require it to be a local joint venture or whatever.

You know, we’ve seen the blueprint in many of what used to be, you know, less rich countries. That’s how they, you know, got a head start on some of these technologies. It’s not like, I don’t think that China [00:22:00] has a head start on wind, wind turbine technology, but they certainly have different ways of doing things that, um, yeah, we could, we could learn from.

But I think across the board, wind turbines, batteries, solar panels, whatever, let them set up factories, put the rules in place that mean that your country benefits from it and you’re getting the, you know, the information transfer. 

Yolanda Padron: Do you think that’ll, like, impulse a lot of these more established European companies to maybe start fixing some of the issues that they’ve known about for, for a while, um, particularly regarding the blades and everything that we’ve talked about earlier?

Like, there’s enough competition there, so maybe they need to start looking a little bit more deeply into their problems. 

Allen Hall: Do we think that Chinese operations have been out front, forward, honest, I’ll even use, about their blade issues? 

Rosemary Barnes: No, but this is a good way to find out, isn’t it? 

Allen Hall: Governments decide who is allowed to build a turbine after a discussion on Scotland.

Uh, but, but [00:23:00] occasionally, a court decides what a turbine legally is. India has just settled that question, and the reasoning should be of interest to anybody who ships machines across a border right after this. As wind energy professionals, staying informed is crucial and let’s face it, difficult. That’s why the Uptime Podcast recommends PES Wind Magazine.

PES Wind offers a diverse range of in-depth articles and expert insights that dive into the most pressing issues facing our energy future. Whether you’re an industry veteran or new to wind, PES Wind has the high-quality content you need. Don’t miss out. Visit peswind.com today. A tax fight in India has produced a definition every turbine supplier should read.

Is a wind turbine bolted to a concrete foundation movable goods, or is it immovable property? State tax authorities argued immovable, which would have [00:24:00] taxed erection and commissioning contracts at 18% instead of 5%. The Andhra Pradesh, uh, High Court disagreed, and on the 12th of August, the Supreme Court declined to interfere.

The reasoning rests on something this whole industry takes for granted. A turbine can be taken down, moved, and put back up. So a turbine is a movable object, and it has less taxation. Bonus. So this is a really interesting discussion that’s happening in India because it’s probably symptomatic of things we’re seeing elsewhere across the world about taxation for wind turbines, right?

That, um, if there’s a way to tax a wind turbine, we’re gonna try to do it. This is a unique way, uh, that happens in India where depending on if it’s permanent or movable, the tax rates are different. I, I guess that would apply to a lot of components inside a wind turbine too, Matthew, don’t you? Like the, the generator, the, the big heavy things, [00:25:00] gearbox, generator, blades, rotors, tower sections, would be taxed at a, a lesser rate.

Matthew Stead: I agree with the court case that it’s all movable and, uh, you can actually buy turbines on the secondhand market, can’t you? I mean, if I wanted to buy, yeah, whatever, whatever, I could buy one and, and put it up in my backyard if I had a bigger backyard. Um, so yeah, I vote for movable. I vote for lower taxes.

Yolanda Padron: The way that it would work a lot of times in the US is, I mean, it’s, you pay, the company itself pays a lot less than they would’ve over time, right? Just by pure, the, the regular kind of tax laws. Um, but the community, there’d be just direct donations to the community, so then they’d get, uh, like money would actually come into the community where the turbines were being built instead of just distributed around the state, which I mean, in a state as big as Texas, it gets, um, but easier for that c- um, that county to get a lot more, uh, funding than they would typically get if it was [00:26:00] through a big enough area.

Um, but yeah, no, I agr- I completely agree with you guys that, that this should be a movable good. I mean, how many times have we seen, uh, even just a blade, um, that it looks like it’s, uh, just a, a failed blade that they have to go in and replace, and then they take it out, fix it, and then just bring it back to the same site or take it to another site across the country.

And, and to that point, like if you were to h- judge it as something that’s immovable, would then any blade replacement just not be taxed? Because then it’s, you’re moving that one component and two, but it’s essentially the same turbine. Like, I don’t know how that all would make sense. 

Allen Hall: I think the Uptime Supreme Court agrees with the Indian Supreme Court that wind turbines are movable, and that’s good.

Well, that wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. If today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. [00:27:00] Reach out to us on LinkedIn. And if you found value in today’s conversation, please leave us a review. It really helps other wind energy professionals discover the show.

And don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. For Rosa, Yolanda, and Matthew, I’m Allen Hall. We’ll see you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy podcast.

A Danish data center will heat a town with its waste heat, Sumitomo buys into Celtic Sea floating wind, and Cadeler orders two more vessels.

The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast is brought to you by Weather Guard Lightning Tech, creators of the StrikeTape Ultra LPS retrofit. Subscribe to Uptime’s Substack newsletter. And check out Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” Youtube channel. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Good Monday everyone.

A data center broke ground in Denmark this week … and the plan is for it to help heat the town. Not a slogan. But a pipe. Let me explain.

The project is called Dansk Data Center 1. They put shovels in the ground on August thirteenth at the Port of Esbjerg in southern Denmark. The owners are the pension fund PensionDanmark … the real estate firm Thylander … and Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners. That last name should sound familiar. Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners has raised about forty-three billion euros across fifteen funds … and builds energy projects in more than thirty countries. This time it is building a data center.

Eleven and a half megawatts. By the standards of this business … that is small. But watch how they built it. The waste heat will go into the town’s district heating system … in partnership with the local utility … Din Forsyning. The cooling water runs in a closed loop and gets used again. And the plant can raise or lower its power draw to match whatever the Danish grid has to spare that hour.

The chief technology officer put it plainly. The goal is for the data center not to be a burden … but an active part of a balanced energy system. Commissioning is set for October of twenty twenty-seven.

Now … hold that model in your head. Because on the other side of the world … they are still doing it the old way.

Centuria Industrial is a warehouse landlord. Australia’s largest pure-play industrial property trust. This week … in its full-year results … it told investors it is chasing more than two hundred and fifty megawatts of data center capacity.

Some of that is expansion at sites it already owns. A twelve-megawatt building in Melbourne bought from Telstra back in twenty twenty. A small center in Toowoomba, Queensland. Another in Perth … leased to Fujitsu. But the rest of that plan is warehouses. Old industrial yards in Victoria and Western Australia that Centuria wants to turn into data halls.

And here is the tell. For three of those sites … the company has already filed power applications. Not planning applications. Power applications. Because in this business … the grid connection is the product. Centuria’s head of funds management says Australian demand is now outpacing supply. He is not wrong. And he is not alone.

So … two continents. Two data center stories. One built as a part of the power system. The other waiting in line for it. Either way … the load is coming. Which brings us to the people building the supply.

Start in the Celtic Sea … about forty kilometers off the British coast. There is a floating wind project out there called Gwynt Glas. That is Welsh for blue wind. Up to one and a half gigawatts. This week … Japan’s Sumitomo Corporation bought a third of it. The other two thirds are held by EDF … and by Ireland’s Electricity Supply Board. Three equal partners.

Now … Sumitomo has been investing in European offshore wind since twenty fourteen. But this is its first floating project anywhere in the world. And the timeline will test your patience. Consent applications do not even begin until twenty twenty-eight. Commercial operation is targeted for the late twenty thirties. That is a Japanese trading house writing a check today for electricity that shows up in fifteen years.

The deal sits under a memorandum signed with the British government last year. Britain wants the Celtic Sea built. Japan just volunteered to help pay for it.

Now up to Scotland. Vestas has installed the most powerful onshore wind turbine in Britain. It stands at Sanquhar II … between Dumfries and Galloway and East Ayrshire. The machine comes off the EnVentus platform … a bigger rotor married to a higher-rated generator. More energy out of the same wind. That project spent ten years in planning. And Vestas has more than six hundred megawatts of these machines under construction across Britain.

But here is the argument going on inside the industry. Everybody is building bigger turbines. And yet a Vestas executive said this week … quote … we firmly believe bigger does not automatically mean better. Project economics are under pressure. In Germany and the Netherlands … you cannot get a blade that size under a bridge or through a village. Scotland is empty enough to try it.

Britain now has about thirty-three gigawatts of wind … split about evenly between onshore and offshore. Onshore space is running out. So every new turbine has to do more work than the one before it.

And then … there are the ships. Cadeler runs the largest fleet of jack-up wind turbine installation vessels in the world. This week … it ordered two more. The yard is COSCO Shipping Offshore in Qidong, China. The price … about eight hundred and five million euros. Call it nine hundred and thirty million dollars. Delivery … twenty thirty and twenty thirty-one. That will bring the fleet to fourteen vessels.

And understand what these things are. The current class carries a deck of five thousand six hundred square meters … a payload over eighteen thousand tonnes … and a crane that lifts more than three thousand three hundred tonnes. Six extra-large monopile foundations per trip. The new class … they say … will be bigger still.

Meanwhile the newest ship … the Wind Ace … is finishing commissioning right now. Its first job is East Anglia Two for ScottishPower Renewables … starting in twenty twenty-seven.

And here is the number that tells you the most. Cadeler’s order backlog stands above three billion dollars. Eighty-two percent of that work is on projects where the customer has already taken a final investment decision. Nobody orders a nine-hundred-million-dollar ship for twenty thirty-one on a hunch.

So … here is what to watch. For years this industry has fought one bottleneck at a time. Permits. Then supply chain. Then vessels. Now the bottleneck is the grid connection itself. Centuria filed power applications before planning applications. Because in twenty twenty-six … the scarce resource is not land or steel or capital. It is a slot on the transmission network.

That changes the game for wind developers. The projects that win will not be the ones with the biggest turbines or the cheapest blades. They will be the ones that show up with a grid solution already in hand. Denmark just showed what that looks like. A data center that flexes its load … feeds heat back to the community … and makes the grid operator’s job easier.

If you are developing a wind farm today … and you are not thinking about who will consume your electrons and how … you are already behind. The old pitch was … we generate clean power. The new pitch is … we solve a grid problem. That is the difference between a project that gets built and one that sits in a queue for five years.

And that is the state of the wind industry for the 18th of August … twenty twenty-six. Join us for the Uptime Wind Energy Podcast tomorrow.

Lars Bendsen, founder and CEO at AC883, joins to discuss the Muehlhan Wind Service acquisition and Canada’s aging turbine fleet.

The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast is brought to you by Weather Guard Lightning Tech, creators of the StrikeTape Ultra LPS retrofit. Subscribe to Uptime’s Substack newsletter. And check out Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” Youtube channel. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Welcome to Uptime Spotlight, shining light on wind energy’s brightest innovators. This is the progress powering tomorrow.

Allen Hall: Lars, welcome back to the podcast.

Lars Bendsen: Thank you so much, Allen.

Allen Hall: A lot has happened since I talked to you last. I saw some of the announcements on LinkedIn. I was really excited for you. So AC883 has news.

Lars Bendsen: We have news. It was about a month ago now, but yes, things have been going very well.

Allen Hall: Muehlhan has acquired AC883, which is a company you started how many years ago?

Lars Bendsen: I started AC883 12 years ago. From my dining room table, basically.

Allen Hall: Wow. And it’s grown to quite the business over time.

Lars Bendsen: Yes, we have been expanding, especially the last five years after my son came in. He has been the main driver, so we’ve been expanding like crazy the last five years. And, well, getting older. Now we are at a point where we should extend, spend more. And then when Muehlhan, one of the biggest companies in the wind industry, looked our way, it was an easy decision to make. Very easy.

Allen Hall: Muehlhan is well known for being a leader in the ISP world in Europe, and a little bit in America. They’re still making a presence here. That’s why they wanted to talk to you, I’m sure, because AC883 has a nice Canadian market. People trust you and rely upon you, because you bring the quality people over, plus you have all the resources to get to parts that you can’t acquire in Canada and the United States. You know who to call. It’s part of that Danish connection. And that makes a lot of sense, because I do think as we see the industry mature, those quality companies like AC883 are very valuable. They see them as being a huge resource to the industry.

Lars Bendsen: As I said, it makes us really proud that a big company is looking our way, and it’s been a very smooth transition. As you were talking about earlier, the industry is maturing, meaning also big is getting bigger, and you need more horsepower, you need more muscle. And we also needed that, because we’re expanding and there’s only so much we can do. And we’re all getting older, so at a certain time you have to do something.

Allen Hall: Sure, but it comes at a point where you’ve proven yourself time and time again. How many times have you grown an industry in your lifetime? You’ve done it many, many times. That’s why AC883 has always been the relied-upon source for so many things. Now Muehlhan brings a lot of advantages and a lot of horsepower to the organization. Because as you have gotten larger, you realize there’s a lot of back office things that need to happen. Safety, gear, equipment. It’s not just putting technicians on ropes out on site. There’s all the management of that. That’s where size matters.

Lars Bendsen: Size matters, and also the whole health and safety perspective. You’re putting more staff behind the scenes than actually in front of the scenes. So it’s also extremely expensive. And now we’re expanding our offering, because under the Muehlhan umbrella we can do everything, including main component changes, which we didn’t do before. We decided before that anything we need a crane for, we do not do.

Allen Hall: Right, I remember that.

Lars Bendsen: Because it’s a completely different animal from a health and safety perspective, equipment, et cetera. And now in Canada, the company we’re going to be merging with, that’s what they do. They’re really strong in lifting and really strong in installation of turbines, complete wind farms. Where we are strong on the O&M side. And our primary customer is the asset owners.

Allen Hall: Asset owners love you.

Lars Bendsen: We hope so. We think so.

Allen Hall: I know they do.

Lars Bendsen: Where the other company is more focused on the OEM side. So there’s actually a really good mix in that. And we don’t step on each other’s toes, because we are focused on the O&M part and they’re focused on installation of turbines. So it’s a perfect match in so many ways.

Allen Hall: And particularly in Canada, because the Canadian market is poised to put a lot of turbines up in the next couple of years. But at the same time, there’s an older fleet there, and spare parts is an issue. Some of the blades and the repairs are a little more complicated just because of the age of the turbine. And there are a lot of spares and components that you have access to and can bring into the Canadian market. You keep those turbines that are 15, 20 years old running.

Lars Bendsen: Yes, we’re in a sweet spot in that respect, where the turbines are getting older but they’re not too old. So we need to keep them alive. And also, many owners still have the high PPA, which also means they want to do it. So there is a growing market for the O&M component, no doubt about it. But also, whatever happens in the US, leave that aside, they have a lot of good stuff happening in Canada on the offshore side, on the East Coast.

Allen Hall: Oh, yes.

Lars Bendsen: Nova Scotia. There are four big projects going out to bid, I think, within a year or so, and a lot of new projects coming up. So no doubt about it, Canada is a growing market. Where my impression is, and I have to be careful not to say too much, maybe the US is more a stagnating market. It’s maybe not growing as fast as it used to be. Of course, I don’t know enough to be smart about saying it. I’m just saying my impression is it’s more a flat market.

Allen Hall: Today.

Lars Bendsen: Today, today.

Allen Hall: But tomorrow it’s something else.

Lars Bendsen: That’s the charm of the unpredictability.

Allen Hall: Exactly. Welcome to wind, right? It’s unpredictable. Well, I think that’s good, because the Canadian market is one of those pieces that a lot of Americans don’t pay attention to, because it’s not the same scale.

Lars Bendsen: Not yet. But also from the European side, every time we have talked to European vendors or customers, it’s “yeah, be in America.” Yes, but I’m talking Canada. Canada has not even been on the radar. They’re talking about it as of late, but they had not talked about anything else before. So now it’s coming on the radar. And I know the Muehlhan people are smart people. They might be seeing that too.

Allen Hall: Oh, I would imagine, yes.

Lars Bendsen: So I have no doubt that it makes sense. The other thing that’s critical, of course, the US is big as well, but Canada is area-wise extremely big.

Allen Hall: Same width as America, roughly. That’s a big territory.

Lars Bendsen: But that also means it’s further between the turbines. That means you can travel like crazy to meet very few clients. And that’s why the one company is in western Canada and we are in eastern Canada. That makes sense. There are many reasons why you have to be local in your area.

Allen Hall: Part of that is what’s happening in the United States at the moment, but it’s also on the part of Canada to react to it in a positive way. Like, if America’s not going to do it, well, we’re here. We have great wind resources in Canada. And that’s what the Canadian government is saying to itself, I think. They’re realizing the opportunity to go after that wind resource is now. And not only that, because of the way America has situated itself, they can sell a lot of that power that’s going to be generated in Canada right down to the East Coast of the United States.

Lars Bendsen: Yes. Well, the whole AI, the whole data center stuff. It takes seven to eight years to build a power plant. Normally they put a wind farm up in two years. You can’t avoid it, whether you want to or not. I think the Canadians are a little bit optimistic right now, to say, “If you don’t want to do it, we will do it.” And I think we are very happy, and we will see by the end of 2028 who’s happy where. But it’s all good.

Allen Hall: Right.

Lars Bendsen: It’s all good. But again, by that time, well, only now I’m retired officially, so…

Allen Hall: What does that mean? What does retired officially mean?

Lars Bendsen: I don’t know. But I’m retired in the respect that Muehlhan bought the company, and Jannik, my son, who’s been running my company—

Allen Hall: Jannik is awesome.

Lars Bendsen: —he’s been running my company anyhow the last three years. So there’s no change in personnel, same person, people know the same him. Same place, same locations. Nothing has changed at all. Same reasons as before. We just have more horsepower and more offerings to do, and we’re very happy, because we needed that too. Just the whole thing about main component routines. Now we can do it. We couldn’t do that before.

Allen Hall: There’s a lot of need for that.

Lars Bendsen: As you said, the aging fleet, they need to do main components. We need to lift a whole rotor down, different stuff. So that’s good.

Allen Hall: Isn’t that exciting, though?

Lars Bendsen: It’s very exciting. Especially for our team. And I’m so proud and happy sitting on the sideline and following it. It’s amazing.

Allen Hall: Well, you’re not going to sit there and let them do main component exchanges without going and watching that, right? You’re going to have to go at least take a look at that.

Lars Bendsen: I can’t go on site, so I can sit from the highway and look at it.

Allen Hall: They’ll give you a hard hat, don’t worry.

Lars Bendsen: Oh, I won’t do it.

Allen Hall: Safety glasses and steel-toe shoes.

Lars Bendsen: Maybe, maybe, maybe. But I’m happy. And Muehlhan is truly good people, a good company. And they have bought out, I don’t know the number of companies they have bought the last couple of years, not only in wind but also in the industrial division. They have a huge industrial company. So I think it’s something like, don’t hold me to it, 40 to 50 companies over the last couple of years. So they’re growing like crazy. And you only do that if you’re good people.

Allen Hall: That’s true. The only way to survive is with good people.

Lars Bendsen: Or people just say, “No, thank you.” Because people are not desperate to sell. And we were not desperate. We saw it as a great opportunity, and we are honored that they did it. And I think we can take the market share if we want to.

Allen Hall: I think Muehlhan, in terms of its reputation, is well known. I’ve talked to large European operators, and who do they use? Muehlhan. That’s who they use. So you hear that name pop up quite a bit, and rightly so. We’ve worked with them. Weather Guard has worked with Muehlhan in the past, and the results have been good, so we’re really grateful.

Lars Bendsen: It also looks like there will be more presence of Muehlhan, so to speak, because before it was more the individual companies that had been a part of the Muehlhan group. They’ll be branded as Muehlhan. So it’s the same companies, but there might be bigger visibility, is my guess. I don’t know, again, I’m out, I don’t know the strategy plans. But that’s my two cents, that there’s going to be a bigger visual presence as well.

Allen Hall: But in terms of contact points at AC883, Muehlhan now, you’re still able to call Jannik, you’re still able to call Jacob, Bent, and Sydney, and the whole crew is still there.

Lars Bendsen: The whole crew. No changes. Same numbers, same emails. The email signature has changed, but the same email address, same telephone number. Even I have my same phone number and my same email address. So if you’re desperate, I’m happy to pick up the phone and forward it to someone else. So it’s all in good order. I’m very happy and proud that we can do that and hand it over.

Allen Hall: Well, it’s amazing. And congratulations. But I wanted to have you back on the podcast because we’ve had you on so many times before, and because you’re such an industry insider, so to speak. You know where things happen, and why they’re happening, and the history of some of these wind events. So I use you as that resource, but you’re also a great friend, and I appreciate that. We met just randomly several years ago. Like, who is this Lars guy? And you realized immediately, super knowledgeable, smart on his feet, good salesperson, all those things you need to have in the wind industry to be successful. That’s the package.

Lars Bendsen: Well, people dealing with people.

Allen Hall: Yes. People dealing with people. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. We’re going to have to have you back on. We have to pull you out of retirement to comment on the state of the wind industry.

Lars Bendsen: Would love to do that.

Allen Hall: All right, I would love to have you back on.

ORE Catapult wants industry blade failure data, Siemens Gamesa posts its first profit since 2022, and Vattenfall sweeps Denmark’s offshore auction. Fill out the ORE Catapult survey!

The Uptime Wind Energy Podcast is brought to you by Weather Guard Lightning Tech, creators of the StrikeTape Ultra LPS retrofit. Subscribe to Uptime’s Substack newsletter. And check out Rosemary’s “Engineering with Rosie” Youtube channel. Have a question we can answer on the show? Email us!

Allen Hall: Welcome to the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. I’m your host, Allen Hall, and I’m here with Rosemary Barnes, Matthew Sted, and Yolanda Padron. And it has been a real interesting week out in the renewable land, uh, if you’ve been watching some of the news, and we’re gonna talk about a number of those stories this week.

But I wanna lead off with what ORE Catapult is doing over in the UK. So if, if you haven’t followed ORE Catapult, they are a, a research investigative arm and a huge proponent of wind, offshore wind in the United Kingdom, and they’ve done a, a tre- really tremendous amount of work in some of the, uh, particular problems that exist in wind trying to help [00:01:00] solve them.

They have a survey that’s out, and if you haven’t seen it, you can just Google ORE Catapult and put in survey, and you’ll come to either an article or get to their site. And Rosemary and Yolanda, there’s a couple of particular items that they’re asking questions about. Uh, a lot of it is asking specific questions about torsional stability of blades.

Have you seen more difficulty with torsion? Is… Do we need a torsion test? I think that was one of the questions. Uh, also looking at ranking of the different issues that happen with blades in particular. That’s what I noticed. Uh, you know, where’s lightning? Where’s blade connections? Where’s structural issues?

Where do you rank all those different things? And I, I have not seen a survey like this in quite a while. Is this something that we need to do more of? I know [00:02:00] ORE Catapult will get a huge amount of feedback, at least I hope, over in the UK and, and around Europe. I don’t think many Americans are gonna be contributing to that too much since you don’t have a lot of offshore wind.

But is this going in the right direction? Do we need more of these industry surveys about structural blade issues? 

Yolanda Padron: Yeah, I think these surveys are a really good idea. Uh, the only thing that scares me from the owner side is that sometimes there’s a little bit of, uh- Teams don’t really love the idea of sharing information that might seem like it’s, um, like intellectual property to their internal teams.

Even if as an engineer, of course, you love the idea of sharing and finding out like, um, what everybody else is, is experiencing on their site. Um, and so I really hope that the teams can really look, like their internal teams can really look past that because this would be a really great tool [00:03:00] for everybody to use.

I know I looked at the survey myself and some of the questions kind of gave people the, the opportunity to kind of anonymize their data and then just kind of share it and have it. It seemed like it, it would probably be a platform that everybody could look at or everybody that, that shared could look at.

And I think that it could be really, really good for operators to be able to know kind of if what they’re seeing on site is normal and just to be able to see what they’re signing up for when there’s a new site coming in. Or if it’s a site that’s been operational for a while, you can see what’s, hopefully, what’s happening to a quite older site than yours.

So just to, to be able to be a bit more prepared, um, since a lot of these sites are from different own- owners. But I think it’s a really good idea. 

Allen Hall: The survey asked questions about leading edge erosion, torsional loads, root joint integrity, lightning damage, manufacturing defects, which is a big [00:04:00] issue right now, extreme loading events, which also, uh, is, uh, coming about more often, uh, repair performance, and end of life fatigue.

So there’s a, a series of questions about that and when do you experience these items in the lifetime of a blade. Is it more towards the beginning of the operation or more towards the end? That is important to know ’cause it, how you go about managing blades depends on that. The torsional questions were more specific.

Uh, in your experience, how well understood are the effects on blade longevity of torsional loads compared to bending loads? And I think that relates back to some of the, uh, issues that have been seen on some offshore blades where there’s no existing test for torsion because it’s so hard to do. Whereas bending loads, we pretty well understand that and can do lifetime testing essentially for, for bending loads.

So the torsional one I think is gonna raise a lot of question marks to hopefully with people, and we can come up [00:05:00] with a, a better approach to that. 

Yolanda Padron: Hopefully, yeah. I think this is, I mean, this is just a really good idea to if, if everybody could partake. Um, I would really love to see something similar if people could in, in onshore.

And so just something that’s, that’s shared a, uh, a little bit more widely I think would be really, really great. Uh, the only thing that might stre- or not stress me out, but- you know, I think people need to be careful about is just making sure that you’re not, um, that you actually use your data and not just kind of like, “Oh, I know that I remember this terrible lightning damage that I got in this really, really bad area, so I’m gonna mark as though most of my lightning damage happens in that bad area.”

So just, just make sure you don’t use confirmation bias for, for that, but 

Matthew Stead: I can also add to it as well ’cause, um, we’ve done a fair bit of work with all Catapult over the years, um, particularly through the new IEC standard for blade O&M. Um, and, uh, [00:06:00] definitely through the new blade O&M standard, the topic of blade twist has come up multiple times.

Um- And also adding to that, you know, our organization has done twist on, twist measurements on 100 meter blades, and the twist that we measured was more than the OEM expected. Um, so I think this is a bit of a sleeper topic, um, and I think OR Catapult is doing the right thing by gathering more information.

Allen Hall: There is a l- little database that’s gonna be put together, at least looking at the questions. Question 12, and everybody hopefully will go in and, and participate in the survey, but it says, “Would you be interested in sharing redacted failure data into a industry-wide database to help inform research agenda for blade development and O&M tools and solutions?”

That is a great idea. Having a database so we understand the scale of problems and can put some numbers [00:07:00] to them, and then we can do some more research in those areas, and focus research where we’re actually gonna spend money in the right places, which has been my fight for the last five, six years, where we spend a lot of money, but not necessarily where we need to.

That’s a great question, and hopefully OR Catapult does p- put together a database. 

Rosemary Barnes: Companies really, really, really struggle to provide access to their data. Like, um, it, y- yeah, it, it’s, it’s very hard to get it beyond just using for their own specific project. I’ll be, I’ll be so happy if this database gets up and becomes publicly available so that every- everybody can use it to create the solutions that the industry needs.

But I know how hard a challenge it is, so I’m wishing them heaps of, heaps of luck to get it to work. 

Matthew Stead: And can I also add that, um, OR Catapult also did a wonderful presentation at Blades Europe, where they talked about life extension. They talked about the actual loading on the blades, um, influencing the fatigue life.

And so I think, you know, that excellent [00:08:00] database hopefully, as we talked about, gets fed into some of their work about life extension. 

Allen Hall: Well, OR Catapult is trying to get ahead of blade failures before they cost money. Uh, our next company knows exactly what that costs. Siemens Gamesa is still climbing out of a serial defect problem, and it posted its first profit in four years.

So we’ll be back to talk about that in a moment. 

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Allen Hall: Siemens Gamesa has finally turned a [00:09:00] profit, its first time since 2022. Uh, now comes the hard part. Order intake in the third quarter fell 77% from 4.89 billion euros a year ago to 1.05 billion Chief Executive Christian Bruch, uh, says a lot of the offshore projects that were originally planned are slipping, and as we’ve seen in the news, and that developers are not willing to make final investment decisions right now.

Uh, in Germany, developers are lobbying to hand 16 gigawatts of offshore sites back to the states, and, and Bruch says that the, the capacity is, is not going to be built. Onshore, uh, the relaunched 5.X platform is ramping up slowly after the serial defect shutdown, with approvals still holding some orders back.

So Siemens Gamesa is going to make a push, or [00:10:00] Omtera I guess it is called now, w- is going to make a push, uh, into the 5.X machine and continue on on the offshore side. But boy, some of these, uh, auctions and, uh, bidding processes are not great for Siemens at the moment. 

Matthew Stead: I’ve got a question. Did, um, did Siemens actually stop selling for a while as well?

Is that part of their order intake loss? 

Allen Hall: Some of the machines, I believe, the 4.X and the 5.X, when they had the serial defect issues, uh, they put a hold on them for a little while and, and did a complete redesign, I believe, on the blades. But other turbines I thought were still being offered for sale, and I thought I saw s- some installs in the United States going on, more on the two megawatt, three megawatt machines, uh, but n- not the bigger ones.

And, and offshore too, like it sound- does sound like the large offshore wind project in the United States, which is the coastal Virginia offshore wind project, uh, off the, you know, a couple of miles off the coast of Virginia, is [00:11:00]going a little bit slower than they thought. Uh, so maybe there’s a, a little bit to the 14.

It’s, that’s a Siemens Gamesa 14-236 direct drive machine that’s going in there. So there, there’s some still learning curves going on from what I can see, but it does seem like it’s, uh, it’s, you know, formerly Siemens Energy, there’s a huge amount of money to be had in this corporation. So if the wind division is not doing all that great, it, it’s kind of like GE Vernova.

There, there’s other ways to make money. 

Matthew Stead: There’s also, I mean, I’m just wondering if there’s a bit of a blip. It’s just a short-term correction in terms of the order intake, and, you know, once they get back on track, uh, it’ll, it’ll revert again. Uh, that’s what I hope for, hope for. 

Allen Hall: We’re gonna move on to Vattenfall.

Uh, there was a Danish offshore auction, and Vattenfall won both of them. And Ørsted did bid and didn’t win, and no one seems to care too much that Ørsted didn’t win. Uh, and Vattenfall, it’s, it’s a huge deal for [00:12:00] Vattenfall. So- Orsted not winning in their own backyard does seem like a problem politically 

Rosemary Barnes: If Denmark wanted to have, you know, local companies winning these auctions, then they could’ve, they could’ve, uh, you know, made it for l- local companies only or tilted the playing field in their favor.

Um, so yeah, uh, I don’t know, maybe that’s the outcome that they want. If they want… It’s always like a, a tension, right? If you, you want cheap- the cheapest prices on one hand, you want local content on the other, and if you, you know, anything you do to one of those two sides affects the other. So yeah, like, in general, the more you encourage local content, then the more restrictions you place on companies to choose a cheaper supplier in every case.

Uh, Denmark is at least well-placed to have good world-class suppliers in, you know, most, most categories of the things that you need in an offshore wind [00:13:00] farm. But yeah, I mean, you see it all over the world. Uh, you know, Australia periodically tries to, uh, you know, get more local content, but it’s very, it’s very hard for us ’cause we don’t have a whole thriving ecosystem.

And so it’s like you’ve gotta pick out the one thing that you think that we could compete on and then subsidize that, and then it’s just, like, so… it’s such a weird distortion. And if companies didn’t already wanna choose that local supplier, it’s because it’s more expensive, so therefore you are necessarily adding cost.

Um, I think Taiwan d- uh, has h- experienced a lot of this with their offshore industry, right? Where they kind of s- they got really enthusiastic about local content, and everyone’s like, “Yeah, this is a great thing to do ’cause you can get local manufacturing, and you can develop a whole thriving industry But then when it comes down to it, you know, it’s not so great to have, like, whoever set up the, the system that you’ve gotta adhere to to get these projects in place, like, they’re not the experts in developing offshore [00:14:00] projects for a cheap price and on schedules, obviously.

Other- otherwise they’d be working in that, in that role. So you, uh, do end up making things really hard for the developers, and then you- they ended up with very expensive projects. And, um, because the local content, you know, like, they had what sounded, in theory at the start, like a good, um, like a good idea.

They start off with a low local content requirement and gradually ratcheted it up as the industry is supposed to mature. But what they saw was the prices just ratcheted up in parallel. Um, especially once the few things that can be competitively supplied, uh, locally, once you… That is not sufficient to y- y- you know, once the local content amount exceeds what you can achieve with those competitive industries, then yeah, you do start to see people having to spend a lot more and add a lot of project risk if you’re, y- you know, uh, going with brand new suppliers that have never, you know, never supplied a project like that before.

So I can kind of [00:15:00] understand why Denmark wouldn’t be so focused on, yeah, our local, our local company needs to win. 

Matthew Stead: Yeah. Yeah, com- competition is a good thing, isn’t it? So yeah, you can’t have everyone winning all the time. 

Rosemary Barnes: I think it’s such an interesting time, though, in the world where, and I’m changing my mind about this, like, yes, competition is a good thing, but if you only have competition, um, and don’t consider your country’s, you know, local competitiveness, then you end up not being able to make anything, especially when we’ve got, y- you know, in the world at the moment, there’s so much globalization, like, way more than ever before in the world’s history.

And, you know, there are countries or our country mostly, that has, you know, 50% of market share for certain things, and more for other things that people need. It’s like, so- They can obviously, just based on scale alone, can produce things at prices that no [00:16:00] one else can compete with. And then you add in that not every country is totally committed to 100% fair global playing field and, you know, there are subsidies involved and incentives and that sort of thing.

Like, you do just end up with every other country not thinking it’s economic to make anything at all. And then, yeah, I mean, everyone knows monopolies are bad, right? I don’t think that would be any different for supply chains. So I think, yeah, like we’re about to have a re-reckoning or are in the process of a re-reckoning about how much globalization is a good thing, how much free trade is a good thing, how much, you know, just letting the market take care of it is a good thing because nobody wants to end up in a situation where, you know, the whole world is dependent on one country to make absolutely everything.

Yolanda Padron: Yeah, but is it, isn’t it also kind of like a cultural thing here for Vattenfall, um, like for Dane- Denmark itself to try to be very [00:17:00]strict about the rules and if Ørsted didn’t win the bid, then they didn’t win the bid type of thing? Like, to not try to give them as much of a, of an advantage ’cause they’re still owned majorly by the Crown, right?

Allen Hall: It’s like 50% ownership by the state, right, Ørsted still. 

Yolanda Padron: In general they, they have a lot of- very Danish rules of like against, you know, uh, in the US against like PACs and lobbying and stuff, and things that are very common here because it’s more culturally aligned with Denmark. Um, so I guess it, I mean, it does, it, it does make sense, right?

That they would try to separate that as much as possible to try to not have that conflict of interest. 

Rosemary Barnes: I think Denmark, um, definitely wouldn’t consider themselves rule followers, ’cause if you compare them to their immediate neighbors like, um, Sweden and Germany, the Danes are like a lot more relaxed.

They have this saying in, [00:18:00] uh, Denmark that i- in, in Sweden, everything that isn’t forbidden is mandatory. That’s how they think of, of the Swedes. 

Allen Hall: Wow. There’s a lot that’s not forbidden, Rosemary. You’re going into some murky waters there. Okay. 

Rosemary Barnes: That’s their perception, and I think it is true relative to Sweden.

The Swede- Swedes are more rule followers. But as, um, someone that comes from a probably more relaxed country, again, yes, the Danes did really like following rules. Um, like a lot of unwritten rules as well. I remember one specific example I remember actually, uh, we had like a whole, uh, I did Danish language classes when I was there, and part of that was like a cultural education.

One of the classes was based around, uh, some of the unwritten rules in society, and one of them is it’s this date, and I don’t remember the date, but there is a certain date that if you have not trimmed your hedge by that date, that is just like y- you are not an upstanding member of society. Like, that is just like ab- absolutely not okay and like everybody that walks [00:19:00] past your house is like, “Oh my God, they haven’t trimmed their hedge yet,” and people will be talking about it and in the canteen at work.

So definitely they do like to follow the rules. But what I will say about Denmark also is that I think that they usually top the world’s list, or at least close to the top in terms of trust. Um, they trust people in general, but especially they trust government institutions. And I think that you can’t have trust in government institutions if they pick and choose, um, when they’re going to enforce the rules or not.

So I think that in that sense, yeah, of course, they’re not going to after the fact go, “Oh, this, the, oh, we had an auction, but the result wasn’t the way we liked it, so we’re gonna change it.” Like, that’s not a very trustworthy thing for a government to do. They do rely, obviously we’re a small country, they rely a lot on international trade, and so I think that they would see a big risk in, um, yeah, having their auction be anything but fully transparent and fair.

So yeah. Anyway, that’s my, my cultural interpretation based on having lived in Denmark for five years. Uh, [00:20:00] five years ago now. It’s been a while. 

Allen Hall: That wraps up another episode of the Uptime Wind Energy podcast. If today’s discussion sparked any questions or ideas, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out to us on LinkedIn.

And if you found value in today’s conversation, please leave us a review. It really helps other wind energy professionals discover the show. And don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And for Rosey, Yolanda, and Matthew, I’m Allen Hall, and we’ll see you here next week on the Uptime Wind Energy podcast.