You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.
In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, my guest is Dr. Justin Coulson, an Australian parenting expert and father of 6 who has his PhD in psychology and is the author of 10 books on parenting and the co-host of the Happy Families podcast with his wife, Kylie. We discuss the psychology behind peaceful parenting, including how self-determination theory explains kids’ challenging behavior. Dr. Justin also shared his three E’s of discipline.
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We talk about:
* 1:45 – Introduction to Dr. Justin Coulson and his personal parenting turning point
How struggles with anger and discipline led him to rethink everything and study psychology.
* 08:20 – Learning to regulate ourselves, practicing repair, and growing over time.
* 15:50 – Why peaceful parenting starts with the parent’s self-awareness and regulation.
* 19:50 – Understanding behavior through compassion and curiosity.
* 20:50 – The HALTS framework
How hunger, anger, loneliness, tiredness, and stress impact children’s behavior.
* 23:00 – Self-determination theory and parenting
* 33:00 – The 3 E’s of Effective Discipline
* 41:50 – How to use the 3 E’s in everyday parenting moments.
Real-life examples: screens, sibling conflict & collaboration
* 49:00 – Building trust and the “goodwill bank” with kids
Why collaborative parenting pays off when tough limits are needed.
* 53:30 – Advice to his younger parenting self: “soft eyes”
A powerful reflection on kindness, connection, and showing up with compassion.
* 56:30 – Where to find Dr. Justin Coulson
His podcast, books, and upcoming work on boys and healthy masculinity.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
* Dr. Justin’s website and podcast
* Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player
* The Peaceful Parenting Membership
* Evelyn & Bobbie bras
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xx Sarah and Corey
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Sarah: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Dr. Justin Coulson. He’s an Australian parenting expert with a PhD in psychology, the author of 10 books on parenting, the co-host of the Happy Families podcast with his wife, Kylie, the father of six children, and, last but not least, grandfather of one.
We discuss the psychology behind peaceful parenting, including how self-determination theory explains kids’ challenging behavior. Dr. Justin also shared his three E’s of discipline, which I just loved.
If you like this episode, please share it with a friend so more parents can learn about peaceful parenting. If you’re a fan of the podcast, you can help us out not only by sharing it, but by leaving a review and a five-star rating in your podcast player app. While you’re there, don’t forget to follow the show so you don’t miss an episode.
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Let’s meet Dr. Justin. I hope you enjoy this conversation and get as much out of his insights as I did.
Sarah: Hello, Dr. Justin, and welcome to the podcast.
Dr. Justin: Sarah, I’m so glad to be with you. Thanks for having me on.
Sarah: Yeah, and it’s morning for you, evening for me—nice—and I’m just glad that we could make this time to talk to each other. I really appreciate it. Thank you. So, could you just tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Dr. Justin: Sure. I grew up on the east coast of Australia, about an hour north of Sydney. Geographically, that kind of locates where I was. I was the teenage boy that every parent hopes they will not have. I don’t think I was a particularly bad kid, but I certainly wasn’t a good kid.
My parents were spending a small fortune—I’m a 1975 baby, I turned 50 last year—but this was in the late ’80s and early ’90s. My parents were spending so much money to send me to a private school. Because we were on the coast—a very quintessentially Australian thing—I was wagging school.
Do you say “wagging school” in Canada? Is that a term Canadians use?
Sarah: No, but I think we get the context. I think it means not going to school.
Dr. Justin: Yeah, I was truant. They thought I was there, but I wasn’t.
Sarah: We say skipping.
Dr. Justin: I was skipping school. Okay, yeah. We call it a school wag.
So I would go to school in the morning and get my name marked off in roll call. Then I would sneak out of the school. Across the road from the school, there were bushes—kind of a forest, or whatever you might call it in Canada and America. I would get changed out of my tie, long pants, and black school shoes, throw on some board shorts and a T-shirt.
My surfboard was stashed in the bush, and I’d grab it from the hiding place. Then I’d jump on a bus, go to the beach, and surf all day. Afterward, I’d get a bus back to school in the afternoon, change back into my uniform, and race into the school just in time to get my name marked off, looking like I’d been at school all day.
This was in the days before schools communicated with parents via email and text, because none of that existed. I was able to get away with it.
So I finished high school. I scored in the bottom 15%—
Sarah: Goodness.
Dr. Justin: Not just my class, but of the entire state of New South Wales. My parents were devastated.
I didn’t care. I wanted to have a media career. I wanted to be a radio announcer. So I got into radio. If you’ve ever listened to the radio—and no offense to radio people—you know you don’t have to do well at school to be good at radio. You just have to be able to sit on the microphone and say things that make sense.
I knew I could do that, so school didn’t matter to me. I didn’t care about it. That’s what I did.
But this is where it intersects with parenting.
About 10 years into my radio career, my wife and I were having some challenges, particularly around my parenting. We had a threenager and a newborn baby.
That three-year-old—I had always held the opinion that my children would do as they were told, and if they didn’t, I would make sure they understood that I was the father and that their job was to do as I said.
So I was very punitive. I basically made all of the parenting mistakes you can imagine when I would get angry, frustrated, and ill-tempered. It’s not that I was a bad father—I spent a lot of high-quality time loving my kids—but I was also really short-fused and highly aggressive.
Frankly, I went from threatening to hitting really fast. You call it spanking; we would call it smacking. I was very, very quick to smack or spank my three-year-old, and it wasn’t working.
After one particularly bad incident where things escalated, I really did lose control. I didn’t just spank her once. There were multiple spankings. This was like a 10-minute escalation session where it just got worse and worse and worse.
My wife was out at the time. When she came home, I said to Kylie, “I’m a bad father. I’m not doing this well. I’m making a lot of mistakes, and here’s what happened while you were out.”
Full confession: Kylie has always been this wonderfully supportive wife—very kind, gentle, compassionate, soft-spoken, thoughtful, considerate, empathic—all of those beautiful attributes that I prize and treasure in my good wife.
She was none of those things that day.
She had fire in her eyes and said, “You are not living up to the father that I hoped you would be, and you’re also not living up to the husband I need you to be.”
And it took me back, because I was already feeling downcast. I felt like I was failing anyway, and she just—it was like she picked up a great big lump of wood and whacked me over the head with it and said, “No.”
Of course, she didn’t actually do that, but that’s how it felt. It felt physical. Visceral. Like, Ow. This is serious.
I left my radio career shortly thereafter.
I was working at one of the biggest radio stations in Australia at the time, and I gave up all the backstage passes with global superstars and hanging out with record company executives at the best restaurants, eating their food so they could bribe me to play their music on the radio station. I went back to school.
I became a full-time student. I worked part-time at three different jobs while studying full-time. I’d sleep under the desk at university so I could do the study and the work—
Sarah: No surfing this time?
Dr. Justin: No surfing this time, no. I was just so committed to it.
After eight and a half years of full-time study, I graduated with a doctorate. I had to do a couple of other qualifications first, including a psychological science degree. I graduated with a doctorate in psychology and became a university lecturer.
Along the way, Sarah, we went from having our two kids at that point to having our third child in my first year of study, our fourth child in my fifth year of study, and our fifth child while I was doing my doctorate. Shortly after I left the university setting, stopped lecturing, and started writing books and giving talks, we had our sixth child.
So we’re the parents—
Sarah: Amazing.
Dr. Justin: —of six daughters. Today, they range in age from 12—the youngest—to the oldest, who is in her mid-to-late 20s. She and her husband have a baby now. They’ve been married for a few years.
Sarah: Wow. You’re a grandpa.
Dr. Justin: A grand—I’m a grandpa. We have a two-and-a-half-year-old grandbaby, four adult children, one in her teens, and a 12-year-old.
So that’s kind of my very short version of the journey.
Along the way, I’ve written a bunch of books. We’ve got a TV show in Australia called Parental Guidance. We’ve had three seasons of that show on primetime TV. I’ve got a website and all the things that you’d expect—a podcast and so on.
Sarah: What did you do when you had that aha moment—that realization that you weren’t being the kind of dad you wanted to be, and your wife also agreed that you weren’t being the kind of dad she wanted you to be? What did you change?
Because you just mentioned that you spent eight and a half years going back to school. I imagine that you made some changes before you had six kids. So what did you do right away, maybe for anyone listening who can relate to those feelings of rage and feeling triggered by your child?
Dr. Justin: Sarah, the first thing I’d say is that there was no linear change, and there were no immediate changes, because I didn’t know what to do.
I was unskilled. I was uneducated. I didn’t know anything about psychology, and I clearly didn’t know anything about parenting.
But I found a mentor. I have a faith background, and there was a writer who wrote eloquently and compassionately. I just felt like he understood me, and he became a mentor to me.
I also discovered a guy called Alfie Kohn. You might be familiar with Alfie Kohn.
Sarah: Oh, Alfie Kohn was the first thing I ever read about parenting—
Dr. Justin: Oh, great.
Sarah: —before I even had kids. And he was on the podcast last year, which felt like a full-circle moment between how influential—
I told him on the podcast, “You have probably had the biggest influence on me—not only in my parenting, but in my life’s direction—of any single person out there.”
So, sorry, fan-girl moment. I’m right there with you with Alfie Kohn.
Dr. Justin: Yeah. I’ve gotten to know Alfie over the years as my academic career advanced and I began to understand where he took his research from.
I read his book Punished by Rewards—I think it was a 1993—
Sarah: That was my first one too.
Dr. Justin: Yeah, it’s a 1993 publication or something.
Sarah, it was just so influential.
What happened was, I was doing my university degree and learning things, and honestly, I’d be sitting there thinking, Hang on, the things they’re teaching me in these university courses seem to clash with what Alfie Kohn taught me in Punished by Rewards.
So I spent a lot of time in the notes section at the back—you know, all the references nobody ever reads?
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: As I went through them, I discovered researchers named Edward Deci and Richard Ryan from the University of Rochester in upstate New York.
They had developed a theory known as self-determination theory.
A large portion of Alfie Kohn’s work is based on self-determination theory.
So I really dug deep into that. I still love Alfie, but I moved very much into the academic side because I became a university lecturer and really got into the nitty-gritty of understanding the deepest depths of what self-determination theory is all about. That has become the foundation of the work that I do.
And to your question: nothing is linear when you are trying to make improvements.
Whether you’re trying to change your diet, exercise, get your finances in order, or improve your relationships, you have insights. You have moments where you think, Oh my goodness, this is what I need to do. I need to show up with warmth on my face and soft eyes.
And then three hours later, one of your children does something, and you forget what soft eyes look and feel like. You look at them with hard eyes, frustration in your voice, and short, clipped sentences.
Then half an hour later, you think, Oh, self-awareness. I missed that.
So it’s this gradual process: two steps forward, one step back. Three steps forward, one step back. Four steps forward, three steps back. Eight steps forward, no steps back.
Over the years, I had this beautiful experience—and maybe you’ve had a similar experience in your family as you’ve raised your kids.
We were maybe in my third or fourth year of study. My wife has an early childhood background. She knows child development. She knows what kids need.
She was a little skeptical about a lot of the things I was starting to talk about and discover as I went through university and got into the depths of what the research meant—comparing and contrasting it with what was mainstream, but actually not always quite right.
We had some tension around how we should respond to the children. I was moving away from that authoritarian bent and developing ideas around exploring their world more.
One night, I came home from university a little late. It was probably around 9:00 p.m. Our three children were still awake.
As I drove into the driveway, all the lights in the house were on. The windows were open. Looking through the living room window, I could tell the house was—to put it politely—a mess.
And as I stepped into the house, the kids—it was just awful.
I walked over to Kylie and said, “Honey, it looks like it’s been a pretty tough day.”
I was trying to be compassionate and empathic. I was really trying to do what psychology says is the right thing to do.
Kylie looked at me without hesitation and said, “Don’t give me any of that psychology crap. I’ve had the worst day in the world.”
Then she stormed out and said, “You fix it,” and walked into the bedroom and closed the door.
Again, this is not how my wife usually is, but it had been a really rough day. The kids were feral. The house was a mess.
I looked at my priorities. I sat down with the child who was struggling the most and worked with her for two or three minutes. She calmed down, I gave her a little food, and put her to bed.
Within about 20 minutes, I had all three kids in bed, and I was so proud of myself.
I stepped into the kitchen and started tidying up. I thought, I’ll just give Kylie some space.
After another 30 or 40 minutes of tidying, I stepped into the living room and said, “Honey, I know you’re really upset. It’s been a pretty tough day. I wasn’t trying to be judgy or anything.”
And she said, “It’s fine for you. You’re not dealing with it all day. You walk in and think you can just snap your fingers and everything’s fine.”
Then she looked at me and said, “But tonight, you walked in and it feels like you snapped your fingers and everything’s fine.”
And we had this beautiful conversation where she said, “I’ve been resenting the things you’ve been trying to tell me because it felt like you were telling me I was wrong.
“But I’ve been watching, and I’m actually seeing that the things you’re doing are working, and our family is feeling better.”
It took four or five years to get there, Sarah.
It’s not like I had this epiphany—I’m a bad father, I need to change—and suddenly I was a good dad.
There were many embarrassing, shameful moments after that epiphany where I still made terrible decisions and treated the children badly.
Even today, I still lose my temper, say things I shouldn’t, and get frustrated, because kids are kids and we’re fallible humans.
But we call parenting parenting because it’s about us. If it were about children, we’d call it childrening.
Which sounds silly, right?
Dr. Justin: But what I’ve really discovered is that if I can learn how to regulate myself—high emotions equal low intelligence—then I can regulate my emotions, turn them up or down appropriately for the context, and keep them in harmony with my long-term goals, which are to have loving, kind relationships with my children.
If I can do that, I’m going to approach them with a tremendously different focus than I will if I’m looking for a short-term fix.
And that is something—
Anger is a habit. Yelling is a habit. Time-out is a habit. Reward charts are a habit.
We can create other habits. We just have to understand the processes and principles behind those habits and then practice them, like we practice a song on the piano, until we finally get it right.
Sarah: I love that.
So you and Kylie really had a journey—a back-and-forth dance of your own processes and your own development.
I do love how you say it’s really about us. Whenever I’m working with clients, after a couple of sessions they’ll say, “You know what? This isn’t even about my kid. This is just about me.”
Dr. Justin: Yes. Yes.
Sarah: Nobody wants to believe that at first, because it’s so much easier to think, I’ve just got to change them and what they’re doing.
But it’s really all about what we’re bringing to the moment and what we’re bringing to the relationship.
Dr. Justin: I get in trouble sometimes for being overly provocative and saying things that are insensitive, so a quick warning:
I want to say what I’m about to say with all the compassion in the world and all the tenderness and care in the world, because I work with people every single day who are dealing with exactly the struggles you’re talking about.
I want to step into the world of neurodiversity—ADHD, autism, trauma—those kinds of areas.
What we’re talking about applies there as well. It’s just harder.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: But ultimately, if I’m raising an ADHD child or a child who’s been through a traumatic experience, once again, parenting is not about them. It’s about how I show up for them.
So I can say, “Well, my child’s like that,” or, “I’m like this because of the diagnosis,” or because of the label, or because of the trauma, or because of the neural networks doing what they’re doing.
I can say all of those things, and many people do. It’s understandable, and I have all the compassion in the world for them when they do.
But the key thing I want to highlight is that in spite of all of those challenges your child might be facing—or even that you might be facing—today begins now.
It begins with what you put on your face and what you think in your mind.
If we can soften our features and go to our children with kindness and compassion while still holding appropriate limits—or working with them to develop appropriate limits—then what we can say is:
“Yes, that bad thing happened,” or, “Yes, we are dealing with this difficulty, so what are we going to do about it?”
We can fall into the I can’t do anything way of thinking, which is really ineffective and doesn’t help at all.
Or we can step into I have this incredible thing psychologists call agency, or self-efficacy, where I can make a decision now, and if we work on it, we can actually improve things.
It might be a longer, harder road. There may be more obstacles to climb over than a typical family without those challenging circumstances.
It may be harder.
But we can always improve.
I never want to be the person who puts limits on what kids can do or what parents can do.
If we change our language, change our focus, and recognize that this is a long game—
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: —which requires sustained effort every single day, it’s extraordinary the progress we can make and the changes we can create in our home and our family.
Sarah: For sure. Yeah.
And unfortunately, it’s a long game, right? Because I think today we always want quick answers and solutions.
Really, it’s just showing up every day as best you can and repairing when you don’t show up the way you wish you had.
And I think another really important part of it—which you were talking around a little bit—is trying to understand our child’s experience and see things from their perspective.
I was just talking to a client about that today:
What’s the most emotionally generous explanation you can come up with for their behavior?
Because we don’t actually know why anyone does anything, since we’re not in their brain.
But we often jump to, They’re being rude on purpose, or They’re trying to annoy me.
Really, if we can think, Well, I don’t know why they’re doing this, but there’s probably a reason, because kids want to be good. They want to be connected with us.
And just reminding ourselves that they’re not giving us a hard time—they’re having a hard time.
That actually makes it easier, I think, to show up as your best, most compassionate self—with, as you say, soft eyes and warm features.
Dr. Justin: Yeah.
No child wakes up in the morning thinking, Today’s the day. I’m just going to ruin everything.
This is the perfect opportunity. My parents are tired and frazzled. There’s a cost-of-living crisis. There are all these challenges happening, and if ever there was a moment—it’s now. I’m going to do it today.
They don’t wake up thinking that.
Like you said—and you said it so perfectly—kids really do want to please us.
I know some parents listening to me say that right now are thinking, No, no. My child does not want to please me.
And so the question becomes: Why? Why are they struggling?
And maybe this is a nice way for me to bring in some of the principles I learned as I went deeper into self-determination theory.
There are a couple of times when children are almost guaranteed to be challenging, and this has nothing to do with self-determination theory. This is just general psychology and wellbeing.
I always think of Germany. A police officer tells you to stop, but they don’t say the word stop because they’re German.
In German, the word for stop is halt—H-A-L-T.
So we add an S to the end, and the acronym becomes:
Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, or Stressed.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: Those are the five times when you can all but guarantee your children are not going to be doing well.
If they are hungry, get some food into them—ideally a little protein, because it’s satiating and helps them feel full quickly.
If they’re angry, then we’ve got to remember: high emotions equal low intelligence.
You can’t think straight in a high emotional state.
So our job is to get curious, not furious, because if we fight fire with fire, we end up with a scorched-earth policy and everything gets burned.
Dr. Justin: Lonely.
I could be sitting right next to you, Sarah, and feel disconnected and lonely—
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: —even if we were very close.
Our children are sometimes literally sitting at our kitchen bench, and they feel alone. They feel a little lost. Because of the way we’re responding to them—with hard commands, correction, and direction rather than connection—they feel lonely.
Tired.
I don’t even need to explain that.
Even as adults, I don’t know any couple who, at the end of witching hour—or whatever you might call it in North America, that 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. stretch when the kids—
Sarah: Yeah.
Dr. Justin: —are just oof…
It’s the end of that period, and you’re exhausted, the kids are exhausted, and you look at your husband or wife and say, “You know what? We are so tired. We’re shattered. But boy, are we nailing it tonight.”
Nobody ever says that when they’re tired—
Sarah: Yeah.
Dr. Justin: —because you’re not nailing it. You’re just hanging in there.
And it’s the same with kids.
Then the S is for stressed, and that includes sickness, because sickness is a stress on the body as well.
Those five indicators are going to let you know when your child is likely to be challenging, and I think they’re really good to watch out for.
But if we go a little deeper and talk about self-determination theory, it says that each of us has these needs.
You have them, Sarah, and I have them, and our children have them—even your mother-in-law has them.
We have three basic psychological needs.
When we’re in environments where those needs are supported, oh my goodness, we thrive. These are environments we’re drawn to and attracted to. We approach them with a smile on our face and can’t wait to be there.
But if the environment is what researchers call need-thwarting or need-frustrating—meaning it frustrates and thwarts those needs—then we avoid it.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: Or, if we’re in those environments, we act in ways that are challenging.
So the basic psychological needs are:
Number one: a sense of relationship, or relatedness. That’s the technical term they use.
Relatedness is a sense of mutual belonging.
Sarah: So would it be similar to mattering? Like you feel like you matter to somebody?
Dr. Justin: Yeah. There’s been a lot of talk recently about mattering.
But it’s reciprocal mattering. It’s not just one-way.
It’s I matter to you, but you matter to me.
Sarah: Yeah.
Dr. Justin: Let me use Mother’s Day as an example.
We just had Mother’s Day in Australia at the start of May.
If I’ve got a great relationship with my mother-in-law, and it’s Mother’s Day, I’m probably going to spend the morning with my wife and family while my children celebrate their mum. Then maybe at lunchtime, we head over to the in-laws to celebrate my wife’s mum.
If I feel like that relationship need is supported at my mother-in-law’s—meaning there’s mutual belonging, I matter to her, she matters to me, we enjoy one another’s company, and it feels good—I’m going to say:
“Great. Let’s get in the car. Let’s go. What do we need to do?”
But if I’m going to a need-frustrating environment—if there’s tension, antagonism, snide remarks, eye rolls, silence, defensiveness, or wounds from bad things that happened in the past—that environment doesn’t feel good to me.
So I’m going to say to Kylie:
“Honey, why don’t you take the kids to your mum’s? Have a great lunch. We’ve made a big mess this morning, and I think the best thing I can do for your Mother’s Day”—and I’ll frame it nicely, of course—“is stay home, tidy the house, clean up the kitchen, get everything ready, and put dinner on for tonight so you can have your perfect Mother’s Day dinner. I’ll see you in four hours.”
And then I send her out the door.
Why?
Because my in-laws’ home has become a need-thwarting or need-frustrating environment. I just don’t want to be there.
And if I am there, I’m going to be sullen and sulky. I might try my best for half an hour and then say, “Oh, this is too hard,” and retreat—
Sarah: Or text. The adult version of misbehavior.
Dr. Justin: Yes, exactly. Exactly.
But if I’m a child in a need-thwarting or need-frustrating environment, I’m going to get into fights with the kids I don’t like.
Or I’m going to say, “I don’t want to go to school because everyone picks on me because I don’t regulate my behavior properly because I’ve got ADHD.”
Right?
So school becomes a place I don’t want to go.
Or maybe you have a faith background and your child doesn’t have any friends at church.
Or you’ve signed them up for soccer, but they don’t know anyone on the team.
And they’re saying, “Yeah, but I don’t want to go.”
It all comes down to relationship.
Relationship is the basic psychological need that’s being thwarted.
Now, the second basic psychological need is competence.
Competence, I would describe as feeling like I can do the thing I’m being asked to do.
Sarah: Or that I want to do.
Dr. Justin: Yeah. We’ll get to want to in just a second, because want-to is the third basic psychological need—autonomy.
So stay with me on competence for a second.
Competence is capability. Capacity.
It’s not even necessarily about being able to do something—it’s about feeling like you’re making progress toward the goal.
Let’s say I’m joining acrobatics and trying to learn how to do a handstand.
That’s really tricky. It’s a tough skill.
If I show up every week to acrobatics, even if I’ve got great friends there—so my relationship need is supported—and I love my coach, but every time I try to do a handstand my shoulders buckle, my elbows aren’t straight, my form is wrong, I fall over, or I can’t stay up…
After four or five or six weeks, I’m going to say:
“I don’t like this anymore. I’m out.”
I had a daughter who wanted to come cycling with me.
I’m a really keen cyclist. I ride on the road. I’m a middle-aged man in Lycra.
But I also ride on the velodrome.
You’ve seen those velodrome bikes at the Olympics—the indoor track where they go around and around and around.
You might have noticed that after they finish the race, they keep pedaling and do another 10 laps.
The reason is twofold.
Number one: there are no brakes on those bikes.
And second: they use what’s called a fixed gear, meaning that when the wheels are spinning, the pedals are spinning.
If you stop pedaling, you’re going to get thrown over the handlebars because the wheels are still moving, which means the pedals are still moving, even if you try to stop them.
So you just have to keep riding until the bike slows down.
My daughter wanted to come to Friday night velodrome racing with me.
We didn’t have the money, but we spent all this cash on a bike, the Lycra, the helmet, the special shoes—it cost a lot, and I was a poor university student.
But my daughter wanted to cycle with me, and I wasn’t going to miss that opportunity. So we sacrificed and made it happen.
Unfortunately, she was competing against girls who had been riding for four, five, or six years.
For the first few weeks, she gave it a good go, but she was losing by several laps every race.
After about a month, she said:
“Dad, I don’t want to do this anymore.”
And my response was:
“But I’ve spent all this money.”
But what was really going on was that as much as she liked the girls and the atmosphere, she didn’t feel competent—
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: —and she didn’t see progress.
She didn’t feel like she was ever going to master the activity, so her motivation and wellbeing plummeted.
Cycling became a need-thwarting environment for her.
Whether it’s piano, violin, rock climbing, cycling, swimming, math, PE class—it doesn’t matter.
If your kids don’t feel like they can do the thing, they’re going to push back.
They’re going to say:
“This is too hard. I don’t like it.”
They won’t use these exact words, but what they’re really saying is:
“This is a need-frustrating environment for me. I don’t like it. I don’t want to be there.”
And then they start to act out.
My mom got to the stage with me as a 13-year-old boy where she was physically holding me by the arm and dragging me into my piano lessons.
Dr. Justin: Which brings me to my third and final basic psychological need, which is autonomy.
A lot of people hear the word autonomy and think it means freedom—that kids can do whatever they want. They think it means independence.
That’s not what autonomy means, certainly not in the strict scientific form we’re talking about within this theory.
Rather, autonomy comes down to identifying the value of an activity and therefore endorsing the actions required to do the activity.
See, if I, as a 12-year-old, looked at piano and thought:
This is going to be a lifelong skill that will bring me joy, that I’ll be able to share with others, that I can use in service of my family and community. If I can play piano or keyboard, I could be in a band. I could do all of these things.
If I identified the value in the activity, then I would endorse the work required to learn it.
So autonomy is not about freedom and independence. It’s about choice based on values.
That’s a lot when you’re thinking about three-, four-, and five-year-olds, but not necessarily—
Sarah: No, I love that.
We talk about that all the time in my communities—how important it is for kids to have autonomy.
And I think you can have autonomy even when kids can’t be independent, right?
Because you can’t have a four-year-old who’s independent, but you can have a four-year-old who can make decisions that matter.
Dr. Justin: Yes, yes.
And that decision goes well beyond, Do you want to wear the blue suit or the green one?
Sarah: I’ll quote our friend Alfie Kohn. He says, “Kids should have the ability to make decisions that make adults gulp a little bit.”
Dr. Justin: I love it. Yes. Beautiful.
Let me give an adult version of this, and then I’ll swing it back into childhood, because sometimes parents hear this and think, This isn’t quite computing for me.
In Canada, you drive on the right-hand side of the road.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: And it’s true that if you choose to drive on the left-hand side of the road, the authorities will probably get involved. You may cause harm to somebody. You could even end up in prison.
But even in the middle of the night, when nobody’s on the road, I can’t imagine there are too many Canadians who get in the car and think:
Tonight’s the night. Nobody’s watching. I’m gonna drive on the left.
You are being absolutely controlled by the government and by the law. You’re driving on the right-hand side of the road.
But because you identify the value in driving on the right-hand side of the road, nobody has to compel you to do it.
You just do it because you endorse the idea that driving on the right is safer. It’s what you need to do.
So our job with our children is twofold.
First, when it comes to these basic psychological needs, we want to help them be in environments—or create environments—where those needs are supported.
We want to send them to a school where they have good relationships, where somebody says, “Hey, come sit with us,” where teachers know them by name and smile when they see them and are excited to support them.
A school where they’re able to experience progress—which might mean less emphasis on grades and more emphasis on developing capability.
And a school where they feel like they have some say in where they’re going and what they’re doing.
Rather than being forced to attend a school like I was when I was a teenager, they get to say:
“No, I want to go to that school because that’s where my friends are.”
Or:
“That’s where the teachers help me feel good.”
Or:
“That’s where my interests lie.”
That’s the basic psychological-needs concept.
Now let’s bring that into discipline, which is what started this whole conversation.
Based on this theory—and I guess it ties back to a lot of what Alfie Kohn has said as well—I developed a little model that’s really easy to memorize and even easier to enact.
I call it the Three E’s of Effective Discipline.
The Three E’s of Effective Discipline are need-supportive.
If you look at the root of the word discipline, it comes from the idea that we teach, guide, and instruct—that we show the way to follow.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: But if you look at the modern definition of discipline, the modern definition is punish.
Punish means exact retribution. It means hurt. It means make someone pay a price.
Sarah: Make people feel bad on purpose.
Dr. Justin: Yeah. That’s exactly right.
And I’m interested in disciplining our kids, not punishing our kids.
Punishment is need-thwarting, right?
If you make someone feel bad on purpose, there goes the relationship. They feel incompetent, and you’ve taken away their autonomy.
So standard discipline strategies—whether it’s time-out, spanking, yelling, withdrawing privileges, taking away the iPad, bribery—all of those standard discipline practices trample over basic psychological needs.
We’ve got to come up with something better.
So I developed the Three E’s of Effective Discipline, which are basically this:
On a beautiful bed of empathy, we explore, we explain, and we empower.
Sarah: Ooh, I love that.
Dr. Justin: Explore basically means I sit down with my child at an appropriate time.
Because we always try to fix things right here, right now.
Sometimes we need to, but often intervention simply to make sure people and property aren’t hurt—that’s all you need.
Then you can say to your child:
“We’ll have a chat about this later when nobody’s got a head full of steam.”
Kick it down the road.
You don’t have to fix things right here, right now. Most of the time, it’s just not necessary.
So once everyone is calm, you explore.
You say:
“Hey, I’ve noticed there’s been a lot of tension in our home lately between you and your brother.”
Or:
“Have you noticed that for the last few weeks we’ve had so much conflict about screens?”
And your child says, “Yeah.”
And you say:
“I just want to listen because parenting’s about parents, right? I must be getting something wrong here. Can you help me understand what I’m missing? Where am I going wrong? What’s the real problem from your perspective?”
Now, there are three things that make this better.
Number one: never do it with an audience.
Kids always want to save face. They don’t feel competent when we start these conversations in front of other people.
Number two: have some treats.
Because once you’re feeding them, they’re like:
“Oh, I’m not in trouble. We’re just chatting, and there are cookies,” or a thick shake, or something like that.
And number three: take notes.
When you’re trying to solve problems—and that’s really what discipline is—
The Three E’s of Effective Discipline are about problem-solving.
Discipline—meaning helping, teaching, guiding, instructing—is really about solving problems.
So if I want to solve problems effectively in my home—if I want to discipline my children well—I’m trying to say:
“Where are you coming from? What am I missing?”
When you take notes on what your kids are saying, it’s amazing how much information they give you because they realize:
You’re really listening to me.
Sarah: Yeah. You’re taking me seriously. You’re writing down what I say.
Dr. Justin: They’re blown away by it.
So they’ll tell you a bunch of stuff.
Now, every now and then they won’t. Sometimes they’ll shrug and say, “I don’t know.”
And you can say:
“Well, if you don’t know, that’s fine. But if you did know…”
This drives kids crazy, but it’s my favorite sentence.
“If you did know, what do you think the answer would be?”
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: And they roll their eyes.
“Well, I don’t know. That’s what I said. If I knew, I’d tell you, but I don’t know.”
And I say:
“I know you don’t know, and I understand that if you did know, you would tell me. But if you did know, what would you tell me?”
Sarah: I love that.
Dr. Justin: They get this feeling—it’s like this horrible psychological trick where:
I don’t know the answer, but if I had to come up with one, I guess I’d say this…
And now the conversation starts.
You get momentum.
Sarah: You Jedi mind-trick them.
Dr. Justin: Yeah. It’s beautiful.
And you write it down.
At no point are you allowed to interrupt.
At no point are you allowed to tell them they’re wrong.
At no point are you allowed to respond with your adult wisdom.
You just listen.
Sarah: Okay, and we’re still on explore?
Still on the first E?
Dr. Justin: We’re still on the first E.
You make all these notes, and once it sounds like they’ve told you everything, you say:
“All right. So what you’re telling me is…”
And then you read the notes back.
This is the oldest psychological strategy in the book—I’m not saying anything new here.
If they say, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” you say:
“All right. Great. I’ve got it.”
If they say no, then you say:
“Oh, what have I missed? How did I get this wrong? Clarify it for me.”
And they give you more information.
But there’s a really valuable question at the end.
When they say, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” you ask:
“Fantastic. Is there anything else?”
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: The power of asking that extra question is profound.
It forces them to go deeper.
Sometimes they’ll say, “No, that’s it.”
But often, their first answers are shallow answers to get you off their back.
They’re thinking:
I’m telling you what I think you want to hear.
But when you say:
“Got it. You’re happy with this answer? Fantastic. Is there anything else going on?”
That’s when they look at you and think:
Oh—you’re actually serious about this. You really care.
Sarah: And you’re really listening to me.
Dr. Justin: Yeah.
And it’s profound what children will give you after you ask, “Is there anything else?”
Once you’ve got everything written down, confirmed, and you’re clear, the next step is explain.
Dr. Justin: Now, there are a couple of things around explain.
Explain is basically the part where you tell them what they need to know. This is the parent bit.
But all too often, we step into lecturing, and the kids fall asleep. They’re like, “Oh, here we go again. I thought this was going to be different, but it’s no different after all.”
So there are a couple of things we need to get right here.
Number one: if you’re going to explain anything to your children, my recommendation is that you keep it to less than 20 seconds.
Now, there’s no science around this. This is just my experience in talking with parents and kids in my own family. I find that if you talk for more than 10 to 20 seconds, kids really do tune out, and it goes back to the way things have always been.
The second thing is that I always ask permission.
“Now that I’ve listened to you, Sarah, there are just one or two things I’d love to run by you about what’s going on. Do you mind if I do that?”
I want to make this absolutely clear: as a parent, you do not need your child’s permission to tell them things. I really, absolutely, honestly believe that. As the parent, you have the right to tell them stuff they need to know.
But this isn’t about rights. This is about effectiveness.
If I launch into, “Well, Sarah, now that I’ve listened to that, I get it, but I need to tell you these two things,” I’m already bringing defensiveness back into the relationship.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: Barriers are coming up.
Whereas if I say, “Sarah, this is so helpful. As I’ve listened to you, two things have come to mind. Do you mind if I share both of those with you?” Your instant response, even as I say it—I’m watching your face—
Sarah: I’m nodding.
Dr. Justin: And you’re going—
Sarah: Yeah.
Dr. Justin: Yeah. I actually want to know.
You’re opening up your heart and mind to me, and we’re just role-playing this.
Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: And that’s what our kids do. They’re like, “Oh, okay.” Because we’ve given them the courtesy of listening—
Sarah: Well, and you’re not trying to use your power over them.
Dr. Justin: Exactly.
This is a non-coercive, really supportive conversation.
And I still haven’t had this happen. A lot of parents will say, “Well, what happens if they say no?”
And I’m like, “I’ve raised six kids, and they’ve never actually looked at me and said, ‘Now that I think about it, no, I don’t need to know anything that you…’”
They’ve just never done it.
But even if they did—
Sarah: Well, if they do, it’s probably that they’re—what did you say? When emotions are high, intelligence is low. Maybe it wasn’t the right time to have the conversation.
If they’re saying no, then they’re probably still angry and holding onto whatever was going on for them.
Dr. Justin: Exactly.
But if they’re that angry, they’re probably not going to have explored nicely with you anyway.
Sarah: Yes, exactly. So pick—
Dr. Justin: A different time.
You’re probably not even going to—
Sarah: Get to that point. Yeah.
Dr. Justin: So it’s very much: keep it really short, ask permission, and then share.
Sarah: Okay. So give me examples.
You said, “We’ve been fighting about screens,” was one example. You also gave the example of, “You’ve been fighting a lot with your brother.”
So in the explain—10 to 20 seconds—choose one of those scenarios. After hearing your child, what would you say in that 10 to 20 seconds?
Dr. Justin: I did this just the other day with my 16-year-old daughter, Lily, who is on social media more than she should be. There’s been some tension and conflict.
I listened. She shared some ideas, and I said, “There are just a couple of things I want to run by you. Is that okay?”
She said, “Sure, Dad.”
I said, “Great. There are certain times when we’re trying to connect or have family time, and there are certain contexts where you’re on your device and we just can’t reach you.”
She looked at me and said, “Yeah, I know.”
I said, “Okay. The second thing I want to highlight is that we’ve noticed you’re sleeping in because, even though you’re not supposed to, you’ve been taking your phone into your bedroom at night and staying up late scrolling. Unless I’m reading it wrong, I’m pretty sure that’s what’s been happening.”
And she said, “No, I have been, Dad. You’re right.”
So it’s just two really succinct sentences where I’m stating what I’m seeing. I’m sharing my experience.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: If it were the sibling fighting, I’d say, “Yeah, your brother is really annoying. I get what’s going on. Sometimes I wish he didn’t live in our house as well.”
I might have a joke with them about the challenge associated with that.
And then I might say, “So when this happens, can I just share how it feels for me? It breaks my heart. I love both of you so very much, and my dream is for our family to enjoy being in one another’s company and to look forward to conversations and jokes and doing the things we do. When this stuff is going on, it feels like that’s a pipe dream.
“And secondly, psychologically—you know I’ve got this PhD in psychology—I know that there’s damage being done to the way your brother feels about himself. That’s what I’m worried about.”
So I’ve had both of those little conversations on two different topics, sharing two different things, and both were about 10 seconds each.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: Again, it’s conversational. It’s not lecture-style.
Sarah: And it’s from the heart.
I can feel it, even though this is just an example you’re giving. I can feel that it’s from your heart—that you’re really being open and sharing with your child what your true concerns are.
You’re not trying to power over or control. You’re really sharing a heartfelt sentiment.
Dr. Justin: Yeah. Thank you. That’s the goal.
You won’t always do that, but that’s the goal.
The reason there’s a problem is because your values are not being upheld in the home, and you’re trying to communicate that in a way that shows you honor them and that they’ve got a brain.
Now, we’ve used two really grown-up versions—or teenage versions, I guess. But you can have the same conversations with three- and four-year-olds. It’s just shorter. It’s simpler.
Usually, with those conversations, in a pretty tight timeframe—60 to 90 seconds—you’ve done the whole process.
There is a higher-order—
Sarah: Okay, so what’s the third part?
Dr. Justin: Just before I get to that one, if you really want to do the advanced version of explain, what I’ll often do after I’ve explored with my child is say:
“Okay, so this is the bit where I’d normally explain what’s going on from my point of view. I wonder if you can tell me what you think I’m going to say here.”
Sarah: Ah.
Dr. Justin: And so I get them to explain the explain to me.
The reason that’s so effective is that whenever my mouth is the one that’s moving, my brain is the one that’s working.
If I can get their mouth moving, their brain is doing the heavy lifting.
Sarah: Love that.
Dr. Justin: That’s really, really effective.
And then the last one—
Sarah: Is empower.
And you’re also helping them see things and develop empathy, right? To see things from somebody else’s perspective.
Dr. Justin: Yes. Powerful.
The last one is empower.
That’s literally as simple as saying, “Okay, so I get where you’re coming from. We’ve had that conversation very thoroughly. You know what my challenge is here. What do you think we should do?”
“Where do we go from here? How do we solve this in a way that we can both feel good about?”
It’s true that every now and then, your child will shrug their shoulders and say, “I don’t know.”
Or they’ll shrug and say, “Well, we should just do what I want to do.”
And as a parent, that’s where you step in and say my favorite line:
“Don’t you just wish? Don’t you just wish we could?”
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: Because—well, let me ask you, Sarah. When I say, “Don’t you just wish,” or, “Wouldn’t it be good if we could?”—same thing—what have I actually said?
Sarah: Total empathy. Heaps of empathy.
Dr. Justin: Total empathy.
But I’ve also said something else really clearly.
Sarah: That that’s not going to work.
Dr. Justin: Correct. The answer is no.
But it’s a no with so much love, kindness, empathy, and gentleness in it—
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: —that your child goes, “Oh, yeah. I know.”
And then you say, “So let’s see if we can come up with a solution that will work.”
What else might work for you when it comes to your brother?
What else might work for you when it comes to the party on Friday night that I’m not willing to let you go to?
What else could work when it comes to our screen challenges? Because this is an ongoing issue for us, isn’t it?
Every now and then, you won’t get an answer right away. You’ll say, “Well, let’s talk about it again tonight,” or, “Let’s talk about it again tomorrow once you’ve had some time to think about it.”
But I’m big on deadlines.
“We need to have this worked out by the end of the weekend, okay? I don’t want to go through another week of this. We’ve got to find a solution. If we haven’t had another chat by tomorrow night, we’re going to sit down and work it out then.”
And I also don’t have a problem at this point—
Laura Walker is a researcher at BYU in Utah, and she did a study published in the Journal of Adolescence where she found that parents who use these kinds of strategies—she’s not talking about the Three E’s of Effective Discipline, because that’s the thing I developed, but it’s based on the same sort of theory that she researches—
Parents who use these kinds of strategies, even when they do have to step in and say, “All right, well, we haven’t come up with a solution, so it’s going to be my way,” kids are much more likely to be responsive and compliant—
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: —because we’ve been through a process with them that is not autocratic. It’s not authoritarian.
They’ve felt like they had a voice. Their perspective has been seen and heard. They’ve had some input.
And even though they don’t get what they want all the time—because we’re the parents, and sometimes the fact that we’ve climbed 47 rungs on the ladder of life and they’ve only climbed 13 is all we need.
Sarah: That’s what I call in my work the goodwill bank.
When your kids experience you as collaborative, non-coercive, and not power-tripping—when they know, over the period of their childhood, that they can trust you to take their preferences into account and be respectful of them—then when you do have to say no about something, even if they don’t like it, there’s this goodwill bank behind you and this level of trust.
When you mentioned, “You can’t go to the party on Friday,” I never had that issue with my kids because everything was so collaborative.
We’d have similar conversations. I didn’t have—I’m not very good at thinking of things like the Three E’s—but similar kinds of processes where they’d say why they wanted to go, I’d say what my concerns were, and then they’d invariably say, “Oh, yeah, you’re probably right.”
It was never, “You can’t go.”
It was, “These are my concerns. This is what I’ve been thinking about.”
Because they experienced that whole process over years of parenting, you don’t get the pushback because they don’t feel like you’re power-tripping them.
Dr. Justin: Yeah.
Sarah, I had an experience with one of my adult children who was still living at home. I think she was maybe 19 or 20 when this happened.
She wanted to go and do something, and I said to her, “You’re an adult. You do get to choose for yourself whether you will do this or not, but I’ve got some really big concerns about you doing it.
“I actually think you’re putting yourself into a dangerous situation. There’s some history, some volatility, and some challenges if you go and involve yourself in this particular activity. Tell me why this is so important to you.”
So she walked me through it, and I said, “Okay, I get it. How do my concerns stack up against your desire to be there?”
And she said, “Dad, I get what you’re saying, but I want to go.”
And I said, “Okay, so…”
You used that beautiful term, the goodwill bank. I can’t remember exactly what my words were, but I’m going to use your term right now, because I essentially said:
“I’m going to use the goodwill I’ve built up with you over the last however many years and step in really firmly and say you’re making a mistake.
“As your dad, even though you’re an adult, I want to forbid you to go. That’s how strongly I feel about this. To the degree that I can, I forbid it.
“Ultimately, you will choose because you are an adult, but I don’t want you there.”
Sarah: I’m going on the record.
Dr. Justin: Yeah, yeah.
“I need you to trust that this is a bad idea. We can come up with any number of other activities you could do instead, with different people in a different location, but this is a bad idea, and you have none of my support should you go.
“If you go and something goes wrong, you call me and I’ll come rescue you. But it is a bad idea, and I forbid it.”
And I couldn’t believe I was saying those words. I’ve never said them in my life, and now I was saying them to an adult.
But she looked at me and said, “Okay.”
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: She didn’t fight me. She didn’t say, “I can do what—”
Sarah: No, because you built up the history with her of how she experienced you.
Dr. Justin: Yeah. She was like, “Wow, this is serious. He’s never said that before. If he feels that strongly, maybe he’s right. Maybe I need to find an alternative.”
So anyway, that’s the Three E’s of Effective Discipline.
I feel like I’ve talked too much, Sarah. I wanted to be much more conversational, but I get carried away when we—
Sarah: No, no. I love it.
I feel like it’s very complementary to the things that I teach, and you’ve given me some new things to teach parents as well.
I love having sort of snappy—the Three E’s of Discipline. I think that’s great. I love it. I’ll share it.
Dr. Justin: Yeah, please. Absolutely.
It’s helped so many millions of parents.
Sarah: Yeah.
Well, I love that we’ve connected across the world—from the other side of the world to each other—and I look forward to hopefully talking to you again in March of 2027 when your book Boys comes out.
I figured we were going to talk about that, but we had such a lovely conversation about peaceful parenting, discipline, and—oh my God, it’s gone right out of my head—
Dr. Justin: Self-determination theory.
Sarah: Self-determination theory.
I think it was a really great conversation, and I really appreciate you sharing all of your experience and wisdom.
Dr. Justin: I loved the conversation.
Like I said, it was too one-sided. I wish we’d been able to go backward and forward a bit more, but let’s do it again.
Let’s chat again next year when the book comes out, and we’ll talk about boys and how to help them.
There’s so much talk about toxic masculinity.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: Wouldn’t it be great if we could give them a view of healthy masculinity—a model of that to follow?
That’s what my book is all about: how we can guide boys into a healthy form of masculinity.
Sarah: Well, for folks in Australia, your book is coming out in June 2026. For folks in North America, it’s not coming out until spring 2027.
So I will definitely be ringing you up and having you come back on to talk about the book when you’ve got your North American release. I know we’re going to have a great conversation then.
Before I let you go, though, I have a question that I ask all my podcast guests:
If you had a time machine and you could go back and tell your younger parent self something, what advice would you give yourself?
Dr. Justin: Jean-Jacques Rousseau said there is—I can’t remember the quote exactly—but: What wisdom is there that is greater than kindness?
I’ve paraphrased it. It’s not perfect, but it’s something along those lines.
Interestingly, Rousseau had, I think, five children—maybe six—and he put them all into orphanages somewhere in the first 18 months of their lives so he could spend more time writing and focusing on how to be a good person, which I just find criminal. I can’t believe it.
So take it for what it’s worth, but “What wisdom is there that’s greater than kindness?” is what Rousseau said.
I’ve mentioned this idea of soft eyes a couple of times. If I could go back, I would teach myself about kindness. I’d teach myself about many of the things we’ve talked about today.
But I just want to quickly share the story of soft eyes.
As an academic, I want everything I say to be evidence-based. There is no evidence that I’m aware of where people have done any kind of randomized controlled trial where parents are asked to interact with their children with soft eyes, neutral eyes, hard eyes, or anything like that.
Soft eyes is this idea—
I was giving a presentation at a public library one time, and an elderly lady stepped into the back of the room, sat down, and listened to the last 25 or 30 minutes of my presentation. She must have liked what she could hear from the corridor outside, and she stepped in to listen.
After everybody had left, she walked over to me and said, “I really enjoyed what you shared. I’d love to tell you something my grandmother said to me.”
So we’re going back into the early 1900s.
Her grandmother said, “Whenever you’re talking to your children about matters of discipline, make sure you have soft eyes.”
And I thought, I really like that.
Because if you try to have a conversation with somebody and your eyes are soft, you just can’t say mean things. You can’t say harsh things. You can’t have harsh thoughts.
If you soften your eyes, your face softens and your heart softens. You have this beautiful compassion and kindness, this ability to see the best in them rather than the worst in them, to assume positive intent.
There’s something gorgeous about soft eyes.
So I would go back and quote Rousseau better than I just quoted him to you, and I would tell my younger self that soft eyes will make a tremendous impact on all of my relationships.
Sarah: Ah.
There’s an American—I don’t know if you’ve heard of him in Australia—but he’s a pretty well-known marriage counselor, Terry Real.
Dr. Justin: Oh, yeah. I quote him in my book.
Sarah: Yeah, yeah. He does a lot of work about—well, he says something like, “There’s nothing that harshness can accomplish that kindness can’t accomplish better.”
Dr. Justin: That’s so beautiful.
Sarah: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Justin: Thank you. That’s inspiring. I’m so glad you shared that.
Sarah: Yeah. I love it.
It’s hard to remember, but I think it is true. And I wish that—and I know the world needs a dose of that right now.
Dr. Justin: Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah: One hundred percent.
Well, thank you so much.
Where’s the best place for folks to go and find out more about you and what you do?
Dr. Justin: Probably my podcast, the Happy Families Podcast. My wife and I drop a 15-minute nugget of parenting wisdom every day, five days a week.
Sarah: Oh, wow!
Dr. Justin: Yeah. It’s a lot of content, but it’s bite-sized chunks, and it’s entertaining. We’re fun. We get to do it together.
And the Happy Families Podcast. I’ve got a website called happyfamilies.com.au, but basically, if you like what we’ve talked about—
Sarah: We’ll link to all of that in the show notes. We’ll link to your website and your podcast, and I’m sure it’s easy to find you.
Dr. Justin: That sounds great. Thanks, Sarah.
Sarah: Thank you so much.
Dr. Justin: What a great, great conversation. Lovely to be with you.
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